I’m not advocating anything here, and let me be clear right off the bat about the degree of cynicism and sarcasm laced within the following lines in case it should be missed by anyone, however, it needs to be addressed in whatever way possible. And frankly, I’m sick of talking about honor crimes in this country and how the law should be changed. So I thought offering practical solutions might help.
A recent court case saw a 30 year-old woman getting the death sentence (twice) because she killed her husband who had found out about an affair she was having, and she feared he would cause a scandal. Maybe she feared for her life and thought it would be best to kill before being killed, but I’m going by whatever facts have been presented in the media as opposed to speculation. Now the argument here was that she plotted to kill him. Honor crimes fly under the radar of the Jordanian legal system that frames them as crimes of passion; crimes committed in a moment of rage.
Not plotted, planned, premeditated.
Now the Cassation Court overturned the verdict, arguing that there were missing elements when it came to proving she actually plotted the murder, but the Criminal Court insisted she did and sentenced her to death again. So essentially there is a discussion here over what constitutes “plotting”.
To the woman’s credit, she did take it upon herself to wear gloves, choose and utilize a weapon and then make 2 phone calls to sell the story of a burglar killing her husband during a burglary. I’m not a lawyer but it does sound like she thought this one through.
So here’s my idea.
Since the legal system isn’t going to be changed any time soon with regards to honor crimes in Jordan, and since honor crimes – and murder for that matter – is going to happen anyways, then I think Jordanian women should kill their husbands, fathers, brothers, fiances, and/or cousins who they believe are a threat to them and on their lives.
Because in my opinion, all honor crimes being committed by the above actors are premeditated.
A male thinks about the situation, feels he or his family is going to be dishonored, decides to kill, secures a weapon for that purpose, will often wait to confront the victim in an isolated manner, and then proceed in bashing their skull in, slashing their throat or riddling their body with bullets. I feel that these actions outline a thought process that is plotted and decided upon. Crimes of rage are usually when two people get into an unpredictable argument and it escalates to the point where one feels the best way to win such an argument is by killing his or her opponent. In the male world, this usually involves arguments over football. But to actually go to a confrontation with the decision to kill that person already having been made and with the weapon in hand, seems more premeditated.
Again, I’m not a lawyer.
I would like to emphasize that point.
But essentially, if a woman’s life is being threatened then it is better to kill or be killed in such an instance. Hence, upon granting marriage licenses, the government could distribute firearms for the new brides. In fact, it should be part of some kind of regulation; like insisting on every car having a fire extinguisher for safety, before they allow them to be licensed.
If a situation should arise where a confrontation is expected or is approaching, the woman should excuse herself for just a moment and retrieve her life support mechanism.
She should then turn herself in to the police and claim that it was in self-defense. If that doesn’t work, then the woman should claim she did it to cleanse her honor. If her male counterpart has found out about an affair she may (or may not be) having, then she should indeed kill him for fear that a scandal would ruin her name and honor. Islamists in Parliament would even love this because it gives them a chance to advocate sharia’a law, which highlights the importance of keeping a lid on certain issues instead of scandalizing them, in the name of public and family interest. So she was really just keeping in line with Islamic rules and attempting to avoid the scandal.
Now, I know what you’re thinking.
Where is the money going to come from to buy all those guns?
Now see I already thought about that. Because, you know, that’s what they teach you to do in Public Policy.
It’s simple. We tax the husbands-to-be. Actually, it’ll be more like a deposit fee. Sure, if he ever kills his wife he can claim it as an honor crime and be as free as a bird in a few months, but he’ll lose that deposit. And trust me, if it’s anything we Jordanians care about, it’s losing our deposits. So they’ll definitely think twice about committing the crime in the first place, which in turn, will reduce murder in Jordan.
Again, I’m not a lawyer.
Also, I’m not a fortune-teller, but that does seem like a likely outcome.
Also, I’m not advocating more murder. Let me be clear about that.
I’m just saying it’s going to happen anyway, and neither the culture nor the law is set to change any time soon. This is just a way of dealing with the situation with a hint of poetic justice.
Now we could always wait until a new generation emerges years and years from now, that involves a people, a government and a parliament that is all on the same page with regards to honor crimes.
My way is just more fun.
(But I’m open to new suggestions)
You are such an eloquent writer!
We have that problem in Israel (hence the neighbor title) with the arab population, and it is really sad because the Israeli goverment and police are not doing anything about it. They are afraid that leaders in the arab community in Israel are going to say that Israel is interfering with cultural issues.
There was a case in a family where almost all the daughters were killed by a couple of brothers over what they called HONOR killings, but there really was no honor in any of it.
They murdered one girl, and then they killed the rest because the sisters knew she didn’t do anything, and they have had it with the violence of the brothers so they went to the police and that’s when the brothers kills them. The mother must be beside herself with grief.
Have you read Jonathan Swift? he is the guy who wrote Gulliver’s Travels. At the era he lived in there was a terrible famine in Ireland, and he wrote a column(?) about his solution to the famine – eat Irish Babies. Of course he was facetious, like you are in your column, but it got the point across, like I hope your column will.
Much luck to you on your blog and your important work to educate and change the bad things in society.
Never thought of you being in favor of the “law of the jungle”… kill or be killed?
poetic justice, indeed! 😀
Bas lessa, a crime is a crime, not matter what! Any premeditated crime should be treated as such, and no one, of both genders, should be excused or treated above the law.
However, the incalculable so called honor crimes happening in Jordan, if only, teach us the following; both socially and legally, male relatives in such crimes are pardoned, taking the lightest punishment of serving six months in jail. Whereas women are labeled dishonorable, shunned and ostracized by society, then butchered savagely by male relatives. The interesting part is that it seems that nobody cares about the destiny of the guy who “dishonored” the girl.. he seems to get off the hook easily– talking about gender equality and justice!
Sadly, it really does seem that these dishonorable crimes won’t end in our days… I’m also afraid they wont end even when “a new generation emerges years and years from now, that involves a people, a government and a parliament that is all on the same page with regards to honor crimes” because the same page might never be in favor of the female constituent..
anyway, i suggest that when a woman kills her husband with that (firearm= bb gun?) gun given to her by the government, she pleads light punishment on the grounds of sleep-walking while suffering temporarily insane jealousy… ?
however, as funny as it does sound, I think your idea realistically prevails any ever attempted serious resolution proposed regarding this matter!
Ha! I have had similar thoughts before myself about this situation. After reading newspaper reports of how the accused was set free because, One it was not premediated, and Two because he was in a fit of anger. I figure then if you ram someone’s car in a fit of anger or do anything because you were so upset but didn’t PLAN it, you could get free. I have often wondered how this could be of benefit to women in this country.
The thing I still don’t get in this whole scenario of “honor” killings, is what honor comes to the family after the act has been done? Who on earth wants to marry into this family that is known to butcher their family members? I mean, count me out. I can’t imagine wanting to be a part of that madness. To me that is how you ruin your family’s honor once and for all. I had an idea once to make a website of all of those who have murdered their family members and put their pictures and names on there so everyone can be aware of the perps! If you are about to marry, you better check that database first, just to be certain they haven’t already committed a crime (even if they were set free.) Of course that doesn’t include all of those who might do it in the future. Maybe that should be a question to ask your intended…”What would you do if…”
Food for thought.
Best. Post. Ever.
FYI, the US has similar criminal anomolies.
There we call it heat of passion or second degree murder. Basically first degree murder without premeditation. Therefore, it must be instantaneous. I’m not saying its right, I’m just sharing.
I know some folks think “Only in Jordan.” But in this case it’s not only in Jordan. We just don’t have any statistics available in the states regarding this.
In the US the biggest threat to a woman is her significant other.
It seems that the multicultural aspect is that men feel they have rights over women’s right to life and safety.
Nas, refer to your own post http://www.black-iris.com/2008/02/21/honoring-thy-sister/. The brother signed a JD5,000 guarantee that he would not harm his sister, but stabbed her the minute they reached home. So it seems their fake honor is more valuable than their money.
Your way won’t let the females who kill off the hook, but it will make men think twice about committing an honor crime. So it will become a matter of who kills whom first.
a good arabic song that sings nicely would do it, with professional presentation of concept and direction that can speak to all male age groups, and even to women themselves, not similar to Al-Arabyia style adds on Iraq if you saw those couple of years back. did you see Qattoura by Zain which shows repeatedly on MBC 2, 4 commercial breaks. take Noor for example, can you imagine the effect it would do to see this commercial daily over the period of 160 episodes?
i think it got people thinking about their water consumption. same with women rights and honor crimes, if one can present ideas in a language and visualisation people understand, it would get them to think about it for few minutes, it would open doors for change.
imagine if an Arab huge corporate that people deal with its product/services on daily basis (think Hariri, Emar, Tameer, Itisalat, Fine, National Paints, Nabil) not governmental instituation or NGOs did a song to be aired in Ramadan on Women Rights and Honor Crimes. i think it would be super. think during bab il 7arra 4 breaks! wow! i think its the prime time to prmote social responsibility and all awarenesses campaigns in small doses of minute ideas.
if a man thinks its ok to beat a woman, then its ok to hurt her, then its ok to kill her. stop beating women, he will think twice before holding a gun to her face. just a simple idea, “a father has no right to beat his daughter whether she was a child, a teen or an adult” everything else can be straightened afterwards.
Farah: I think 5,000 is way too low. i was thinking in the ballpark of 10-15 thousand.
tala: not such a bad idea!
The last period have proved that there is one way to solve things in Jordan, a word from his majesty. This is the solution.
Our king should go on TV and say it clearly, that it is not allowed, that this is not killing for honor, but killing of soul, and mind and culture, that its just as bad as killing for any other bad reason. maybe this tribal tradition will then disappear.
and no one should tell me that this bad tradition happens too little that its not worth a comment from his majesty , one soul a year is worth it.
MD: I think there is an implicit difference between clearing up misconceptions concerning certain policies as opposed to changing tribal traditions. One is related strictly to policy and one is related strictly to culture. I think if the Prophet (pbuh) himself came down and sad honor crimes were haram, it might not make a big difference. Changing mindsets that have these cemented notions of cultural practices entwined within a long-lasting system of tradition is a very tough job to do.
I think the King and Queen have worked pretty hard with regards to honor crimes especially through the Royal Commission on Human Rights. But amending a piece of cultural/traditional legislation permanently requires the consent of the lower house, and any bill the government floats concerning this issue has been shot down repeatedly by representatives of the people.
Also, I have a hunch that a royal decree would make matters even worse.
“a father has no right to beat his daughter whether she was a child, a teen or an adult†everything else can be straightened afterwards.
true, the patriarch in the family doesn’t have the right to physically abuse their female relatives
however and unfortunately, i don’t think that physical abuse is what leads to honor killings. when it has to do with honor, there seems to be a disconnect. it’s like a fuse turns off in those men’s heads and they go insane. what defines honor in our society is the problem. honor overburdens females. and honestly, relying on men to change their stances with regards to it is not basically the solution.
we, the collective women have to change the meaning of honor by holding both men and women accountable towards what it has to be. first, women have to equate their inner selves, thoughts, and attitudes towards their gender with the contemporary societal realities about them. that sounds bad, right? Indeed it does since women are savagely treated when it has to do with honor!
once we realize the danger of us continuing to be the ones honor is defined against, we have to resist it with all means. maybe by desiging a new model of honor! both men and women should become models of honor and bring honor to their families through their education, hard work, and success in their jobs?
i honestly don’t know what the best alternative might be, but it all starts basically with changing what defines honor… and it shocks me that women aren’t sick already from carrying this burden!!
Secratea , i agree. honor needs to be redefined. but look at the familiar image in an Arab male head.
is there a single Arabic series or a movie that showed a civil way a man treats dispute with females without picturing the scene of the enraged man raising his hand, the woman shivering while running backwards and some people holding him back if there were any? did the logic of the scene ever change from “how could you have done “anything” without my consent to how dare you do this to the image of our family picturing the man as the sole legit family provider and representative while the rest are the followers, when a situation becomes dire, a man gets to speak and the rest remain in shadows with no permission to decide, why? and a woman thinks its right because of respect to his wishes and vision” ,,, the woman gave it to him in the first place.
i can repeat this scene from the Egyptian black and white movies to today’s Syrian TV shows, the key idea in this scene is in the woman being afraid & feeling guilty and the people holding the man back because they “think” he has the right to do that but they are being noble enough not to let him butcher her. the people holding him think he is doing them right in punishing her, if that one holding him back pushed him and told him even if you think she did a mistake you are doing a greater mistake with hitting or attacking her. this is the point where they need to put their breaks at. we don’t own people.
next time you see a foreign movie, watch closely how disputes are solved in situations when a woman cheats, when a mother finds out that her daughter is seeing someone and how fathers deal with it, when a daughter comes in and says she is pregnant. we need positive ways that shows people how to deal with these issues and how to support family members.
as for tribes traditions, i suggest woman demand a mixed Madafeh when making tribes gathering. or Madafehs with equal room size. this is the first step to get a grip. an equal voice in the tribe. second delete the word “MARA”
GO WOMEN. GO =D
So when do you get your deposit back?
Yay, let’s all become European! We’ll also bring in prostitutes, homosexuals, and pedophiles. Forget about Arab and Muslim culture, since we want to conform to Western standards and norms, rather than our own.
For the love of Allah, grow some balls. Honor killings are exaggerated and used by women’s rights groups and zionist media to villify Islam. Get your facts straight.
i am fully convinced that there is no solution to honor crimes in Jordan (dot) and that is more sad than the hearing about the new victims and deaths.
Muqtada,
the last thing WE Arab and/or Muslim women want to do is become European! And honestly, we are already SICKof this common rhetoric we hear from both men and some women in this society about imported Western values over and over when it comes to Arab women speaking for their basic rights!! For God’s sake, all what we are trying to do is voice OUR RIGHT TO LIVE!! that is a universal huamn right!!
No, the issue is not being exaggerated… it’s already become common to start our daily dose of news with an honor crime reported!
Our right to life is not in contradiction with Islamic principles that value the life of each and every individual, but rather with the tribal/family/patriarchal culture that is ours! Unless it is challenged, and women believe that their agency, which is backed up by religious and social justice, can make a difference, we will continue to live in the Jahilyyah of the 21st century!
IT IS BOTH A RELIGIOUS AND SOCIAL DUTY TO ADVOCATE HUMAN RIGHTS!
Secratea,
Islam does allow the right to life, but not the right to sinful life. I would love to know who is responsible for your ird. Does your family know what you are doing?
And if you want actual jahalia, feel free to leave the Kingdom and go live in “Israel,” America, Argentina, or somewhere else amongst jahili. You will be running back home within a year, complaining of mistreatment. There is a reason more and more western women turn to Islam. You are just taking it for granted. I hope you are set straight before you bring shame.
Muqtada is a troll.
There isn’t someone out there like him who can think this and has the sophistication/education to use a computer.
Not buying it.
Muqtada,
#1 Your daughter came in one day when she was 21 years old and told you she is pregnant, she doesn’t know what to do, she fell in love with a colleague at school and one thing led to the other, it was mutual and she consented to sleep with him.
#2 your daughter came in and she told you she got raped.
#3 your daughter came in to you and told you her husband beats her to discipline her.
how would you react in each situation? i am not fabricating scenarios from my mind, all of them happen in Jordan and its quite possible that anyone on earth would face them. so what to do if this happened? does the reaction differ when its a Jordanian father from the case when its an European father?
Muqtada,
I don’t think what I said previously went through, and honestly, I do not want to repeat it. Just go back to my previous comment and read it several times, it might penetrate that thick skull of yours!
To answer your question: at this point in my life, and after my parents have already honorably bestowed their trust on me (we went through actual royal protocols lol) several years ago, I am responsible for my own ird, actions, ideas, thoughts… etc. I am a responsible human being; congratulate me (aka barikli)!
As a person who still is experiencing life here in Jordan and the States, I tell ya, in terms of what constitutes honor, we are still stuck in Jahilyyah period… don’t honor crimes remind you of the jahilya practice of wa2d elbanat (burying female daughters alive) out of fear that they MIGHT dishonor their families when they grow up?? For your information, most of the females who were accused of dishonoring their families and murdered afterwards turn out to be innocent!!
To say the least, if you don’t get it this time, that might be because you’re still stuck in Jahilyyah!
Although I shouldn’t have to really defend myself, I will provide some answers, sure —
TALA:
#1 Yes, she has gone against Sharia, ird, and every sense of human decency, and she deserves to be punished.
[5:5] …….. You shall maintain CHASTITY, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
[24:30] Tell the believing men that they shall subdue their eyes (and not stare at the women), and to maintain their CHASTITY. This is purer for them. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything they do.
[24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their CHASTITY.
[23:5] And they maintain their CHASTITY.
[70:29] They keep their CHASTITY.
#2 My daughter will most likely never be raped, because she honors herself by covering herself. If there is attempted rape, she can make enough sound and someone will rescue her. If she is raped while uncovered, then she has violated the word of the prophet (pbuh) and is no longer under his protection, nor mine.
#3 Men have the right to lay down their hand lightly to ensure that their wives behave:
4:34 … As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them lightly …
SECRATEA:
Well, of course you are in the States. No wonder. Debating with you is like debating with a brick wall. You have been brainwashed and deceived. I will not even waste my energy on you – why not go date a jew or a bahaii? Don’t bother coming back – we have enough women without Americans like you.
Secratea,
You shouldn’t have engaged in a debate with Muqtada.
Muqtada:
I think that you are the brainwashed, but not decieved because you chose to be ignorant. Anyhow, which country do you live in? If jordan then based on your twisted ideology, you are commiting a sin by living in such a country, I suggest you follow the lead of some of you alikes and travel to the land of taliban.
Ma 3lena..
HOLY SCHIZOPHRENIA! didn’t see this comin’!
“Debating with you is like debating with a brick wall. You have been brainwashed and deceived. I will not even waste my energy on you”…
guess you just proved who the brick wall is 😀
I don’t understand the relation between islam and honor killing that Muqtada is making. There isnt any. Honor killing comes from ignorant arab culture (i dnt mean everyone here,just the ignorant ones). And not wanting to kill our own people isn’t European, on the contrary.
Just my thot on the issue
Muqtada,
I am going to ask you for more patience, I want you to answer this.
Why do you think your daughter in all three cases came back to you, specifically you – her father – to tell you what اhappened? What is the role of a father here? What makes family different from society?
Ask yourself about the reason that made you angry, think of that moment, if you killed her or punished her, whose pain are you easing? yours or hers? Who feels shame and who feels guilt?
What you wrote is your last comment are the guidelines you live within that gives you your peace and you expect your family members to follow especially since you brought up your children to respect these values, but nothing is guaranteed and they wont live by these guidelines except if they truly believed in them and as we live we get influenced by our experience, parents, friends, society, the world, both positively and negatively, so no text will do if there was no understanding. What you wrote intends to implant fear and not show a treatment for what is happening.
Even if your daughter made mistakes, as a father, you are there to do what is in her best interest bearing in mind that in this age she is no longer a child, she has to be responsible for her actions and this is part of being a parent. You are there to show her support and walk her out of her troubles when she needs you, you shouldn’t decide her life for her. A 21 years old woman need not be kept under anyone’s protection, she needs tools that would let her survive on her own, empowering and not covering. She can decide the course of her life on her own if we let her.
you gave your reasons and you said that she sinned and deserves to be punished. In your opinion How??
I can see things a lot through Tala’s perspective, and I think that between Muqtada’s point of view and Secratea’s one lies a whole spectrum of different opinions and largely varied attitudes towards this specific issue. I can also identify with a large segment in the middle who refuse to harm their daughters, even when they believe and adhere to everything Muqtada mentioned about beliefs and values, simply because their love for their daughters is greater than any belief or ideology; since it’s paternal; maternal; brotherly or whatever you want to call it.
Tala asked:
“you gave your reasons and you said that she sinned and deserves to be punished. In your opinion How??â€
I would like to repeat this question to many who share the same tendency towards punishing female relatives for such acts, in your opinion, how? As it is very easy to talk about punishment to women in general, but hard when it concerns one’s own.
My suggestion is that there should be a social reform centre for those who think that their sinned women should deserve to be in it, but then again the woman should still be there and it might even make problems worse, especially those who consider her breath in the world a constant reminder of the shame she brought them!! And that entails a form of detaining women; which is even more appalling!
My point is: if we want to solve this problem in our society we should start at the darkest tone of the spectrum, and try to discuss this subject with regards to their way of thinking and principle on the subject. Because for the lighter shades, I don’t’ think we have a problem.
What a joke. Women in this part of the world having rights is analogous to starving people being fed 1100 year old stale food.
Keep thinking that women and other minorities actually have “real” rights in the Arab/Muslim world, and that life actually means anything to the vast majority of people th Arab/Muslim world. Perhaps there’s a reason why Arab/Muslim countries are mostly dictatorships and/or oppressive theologies with little tolerance for women’s rights, gays, Jews, Bahaiis, Christians, or others aside from being dhimmis.
What a joke.
Sorry to disappoint you Mr. European, but yes women in this part of the world have rights. Do not think that the strength of the family institution to the Arab means that women are oppressed or controlled; on the contrary, it’s highly respective of the woman’s rank in society as a mother, a sister and a wife. True that there are certain issues that we should solve, like honour crimes, prejudices and domestic violence, but no other nation is immune to them. Check the statistics, they should tell you how many women are beaten by their partners in Europe, teenage pregnancy rates: the highest in the world, violence: on the increase, drugs, etc.
For a country like Jordan, with such minimal resources, political burdens and poverty worries, I think that we are doing great.
Being intolerant to minorities?!!!
How is that when there are Armenian Jordanians; Chechen, Catholics, Orthodox, Bahaiis, that were born and raised and proud to be from Jordan, some minorities of which actually fled from Europe!
“What a joke. Women in this part of the world having rights is analogous to starving people being fed 1100 year old stale food.”
“Perhaps there’s a reason why Arab/Muslim countries are mostly dictatorships and/or oppressive theologies with little tolerance for women’s rights…”
European,
you are mistaken. Our discussion here is exclusive to honor killings, which is a social problem because it is deeply grounded in the tribal mentality that defines honor according to the chastity of the females in the family, a way of thinking that existed in this region pre-Islamic era. The pace of change appears to be slow, but with women’s agency and the support of Arab and /or Muslim men who advocate social justice, change might take place maybe fater that we expect.. who knows! However, our family structures are in full support of females in other numerous social aspects, and believe me, your reply reflects how ill-informed you are about this region and the status of our women!!
Women do have rights in this country and actually in the Arab Muslim region as a whole. Yes, complete equity hasn’t yet been achieved as it hasn’t in Europe and the States, places in which women have started advocating their rights more than 10 decades ago! Accordingly, the “feminine condition” isn’t exclusive to only Arab and/or Muslim women, it is universal! But the difference between Arab and/or Muslim women and European/American is that voicing our anxiety, fear, bitterness, hope, and optimism isn’t to improve only our situation, but rather the society as a whole. Identity is contextualized and will remain. Our self-identity is important, yet it can’t be separated from that of the men, family, and the wider society, which are supportive in multiple realms.
By the way, the last thing we need is Europe/America to come save us, as Britan and America claim that saving the women in Iraq was one of the reasons for waging that “holy” war… the women of Iraq in the past during Saddam dictatorship enjoyed high public social status, which by the way, disappeared with the so called “women liberation!”
typo
*faster than we expect
muqtada: please stick to using one screen name at a time. otherwise i’ll be forced to look at your comments as attempts to cause confusion and insult the intelligence of my readers, which is something I feel rather strongly about.
thank you
why would someone use two identities to prove one point; must be dead jealous of this blog’s success!
Go Nas! 😉
Salaam ‘Alaikum
The problem with this scenario is that women are forbidden, by law, from owning firearms, aren’t they? I was told this by a firearm enthusiast, and I thought, “It must be so because the men are afraid that they might stare down the barrel of a gun when they start acting up.”
//And if you want actual jahalia, feel free to leave the Kingdom and go live in “Israel,†America, Argentina, or somewhere else amongst jahili. You will be running back home within a year, complaining of mistreatment. There is a reason more and more western women turn to Islam. //
Whoever you are (seems that you have more than one name?), there is plenty of jahil here in Jordan — like *honor killings*. I haven’t seen so much rampant selfishness and petty thievery and nafsy-ness as I have here — and I lived in NYC (where there is plenty of selfishness, crime, and nafs-loving). Please, don’t presume to speak for “Western women turning to Islam.” I don’t give you permission to make me part of your propaganda. It’s not because of the fairy tale of Arab-Islamic honor that you sell in the pamphlets you pump into our countries. It’s because of Tawhid. Don’t take credit that belongs to Allah subhannahu wa ta’ala.
As for your claim that a girl / woman who covers wouldn’t be raped — you’re either in La-La Land or you’re a troll, having some fun. Because no sensible person in their right mind believes that nonsense — or else women fully covered wouldn’t have been throwing themsleves over cliffs and in rivers in Afghanistan to escape the Soviet soldiers. The hijab has *NOTHING* to do with a man’s ability & responsibility to control himself. Stop placing it on the shoulders of women — whether they are covered or not. It’s time men start talking about *their* responsibilities.
Assalamu alaykum, I Partly agree with Umm Zaid,
It is not good for any men to assume rape to be fault of the woman due to how she is dressed.
I myself am a Muslim from the UK who lives in Jordan now.
There are many cultural things here, that are infact not in accordance with what Islam actually teaches, Honour Killing being one of the most serious ones.
The last paragraph, was not quite right. I think that Western Liberal feminism should not be mixed with that of the perfect Deen of Islam. The way someone dresses DOES effect how they are seen / treated. This is, however, not a reason to lay blame on innocent people, as I shall explain in due course.
Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) told us in the Quran:
“O Children of Adam! We have bestowed clothing upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts, etc.) and as an adornment. But the clothing of righteousness, that is better.†[7:26]
“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their Modesty: that will make for greater Purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And says to the believing woman that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty, that they should not display their beauty and ornaments…†[24:30-31]
If a woman wears revealing clothes, men are more likely to taunt, jeer, cat whistle or stare at her.
Women should not be dressed indecently, it is a cause for *Evil* men to behave in a bad way. This does NOT excuse men, they are also to be held accountable. If they harm any woman, or act in any bad way, this is their fault 100%. Not the womans.
We can not, lay the blame a woman for being raped, due to how she was dressed. This is something that countries like Iran etc do. ( Iran, is not a country which implements Islam in its rulings, its rulings are based upon the whims and desires of its raafidah clerics)
What I mentioned before, is something you will see Everyday in Makkah Mall / City Mall, which is full of leering disgusting men and equally WOMEN.
Yes, the women who wear tight fitting clothes and who put 1 Kilo Makeup in each eye are either stupid and do not know how to apply makeup or they want to gain men’s attention.
In Islam, such women are called “Mutabarijaat”, those who excessively display their beauty for all men to see. This is not limited to appearance but also Walking, talking and general behaviour.
You can not compare and say that a woman who wears tight clothes, who swings her hips as she walks, who wears see-through and revealing tops, who bares her midriff, who wears high heels as she goes around the town is the same as a decent girl who wears the Hijab and who only goes out when it is a necessity, or she goes out with her mahram and is not of dubious character.
– Men, too have to conform to dressing and behaving well. They must lower their gaze, speak in a good way and also important Not to be judgemental………
I do not judge women who do not wear hijab, as I am born and from London myself, which is a wonderful cosmopolitan city!
A woman wearing Hijab or even niqab does not Equal an Angel ! At same time, women who dont wear Hijab are not Prostitutes, Astaghfirullah……… So, this mentality, should not be in people’s minds.
In Jordan, unfortunately it is….. and I often speak to religious Muslims and also Imams about such
issues to do with extremism and ignroance.
Those women, who dress inappropriately are responsible somewhat to how men behave. This can not be ruled out either…
“whether they are covered or not. It’s time men start talking about *their* responsibilities.”
In reality, it is time for ALL men and women to start with their responsibilities…….
First of all, like you said, for the Muslims to beginn with Tawheed… Akeedah and to actually implement the Quran and the Sunnah into their lives.. – The lack of these things is the real reason that most countries in Middle East are backwards. lets not sugar coat these words, there is a very big difference in quality of life in this country as compared to even poor Eastern European countries.
For me to be born in the UK in a Muslim family, and also as a Non-Arab, I have not got any cultural baggage to weigh down my understanding of Islam,alhamdulillah. People, need look at Islam in fresh way, not from how their parents or their local Imam teaches, but from the beautiful ORIGINAL Islamic way, from the Quran, the Sunnah and the explanations provided by the early Muslims.
By the way, without being seen to be “Spamming”, this is a website I have setup:
http://www.turntoislam.com
it is to educate people about the true Islam, and we talk about things such as Women’s rights and about reality of such things as terrorism etc.
We have helpers in 10 different languages setup, alhamdulillah.
Here is a link to The Status of Women in Islam>
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2351
There are videos, articles and discussion there,
wasalam.
Muqtada, you are scary in your mindlessness.
European, from one western person to another (I am dual American/Canadian), please try to open your eyes a bit, your version of mindlessness makes all western people look bad.
Ameer, cheers to you, well said.
Muqtada: There is no ther way to say this: you are a hypocrite, 100% pure and simple. You seem to claim to be religious, and know Islam’s teachings well, but from what you say I find that utterly implausible. Murder is never justified in Islam, be it in the first degree, second, rage, whatever you want to call it. Unless I’m having memory trouble I think the saying was something along the lines of :”For the whole universe in it’s entirety to disappear would be better then the death of a single human, from Allah’s perspective”. That isn’t an exact quote, just a rough personal translation. After I see that, I find it hard to believe that you are even trying to justify murder. Certainly, adultery is a horrible crime, but it is not punishable by death in Islam, and even if it was you should know that Islamic punishments were never meant to be carried out by individual people. If you were to see someone rob a bank, and you proceeded to cut off his arm, you would be a criminal in the eyes of the sharia you claim to know so well. So what about these “honor” crimes that don’t even have any basis at all in Islam?
Also, you avoided the question on rape nicely… Tala’s question was referring to inquiring about what action you would personally take if your daughter was raped, not questioning the possibility of her being raped. And after some research, it seems the “beat them lightly” quote you used doesn’t mean to inflict pain at all, in fact it is referring to a light touch just to let your wife know she did wrong, and that is a last resort after talking, so you absolutely cannot use that to justify beating in the matter that is seen in this country on many occasions. Also, if you could address that first question Tala had, about what you would do if your daughter she had willingly become pregnant? Would you pick up a gun and kill her, even though you probably know it is a completely unjustifiable murder?
I’m probably wasting my time writing this, to be honest, but i hope some of my words get through to you. Lastly, I just want to mention that I am not a very religious Muslim, but it is my religion, and I would appreciate it if you no longer used it and the Koran for your hate mongering and murder advocating. People like you are the ones destroying our image in the eyes of westerners, and every time I go back to the States, I am astonished by the thoughts you and your kind have put in to them. A rational reply backed up by rational quotes would be welcome, but please do not try to insult my and everyone else s’ intelligence with quotes that have nothing to do with your claims, we never actually buy them.
Hoping you find yourself a mind somehow.
I just read this story about a Jordanian man that killed his sister because he thought she was having sex, but it turned out she was a virgin:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24115111-23109,00.html
Is this story true?
I think that this is becoming part of Jordan’s reputation very quickly and it’s extremely wrong and embarrassing out of a nation that is developing so quickly and supposedly making leaps ahead of its regional peers.
Do any of you seriously think that killing a woman who cheats on her husband is going to fix cheating, in general?
Is it really better to live with murdering your partner than work through the problems that caused them to go outside your relationship?
Is it their fault ALL the time? Or a lack of attention, love, and sex that every human needs?
Bottom line is, people love what’s prohibited. Breaking the rules is a rush. As long as it’s so badass to cheat and “survive your honor kill”, it’s going to keep happening.
Also, as long as husbands don’t give their wives what they need, wives will keep shopping for it.
To the man who kills his woman because she cheated; your honor was already compromised when you deprived your wife of the love, care, physical relations, and personal attention to the point where she considered looking for it outside your house. All you’re doing is becoming an honorless murderer instead of an honorless ordinary man.
Congratulations – now you suck at home, in public, are single, and get to cook your own darn food.