Many people are already aware of the story that has grasped the heartstrings of Jordanians these past few weeks. A baby girl was found in a trash bin and almost crashed by a compressor had it not been for the grace of God. The search began for her parents soon after. I was surprised (if not shocked and appalled to say the least) to read about the charging of the parents, today.
AMMAN (JT) – A baby girl recently found in a trash bin in Jabal Amman is the daughter of an unmarried couple, who are now in custody, charged with committing adultery by the Amman prosecutor general.
According relatives and neighbours, the 23-year-old father had proposed to the 21-year old mother twice but her family refused.
Unable to marry, they began an affair over two years ago that left her pregnant, neighbours and relatives said.
The relatives told the Jordan News Agency, Petra, that the man, upon hearing of the pregnancy, called for the young woman to have an abortion, but she refused and stopped seeing him.
She concealed her pregnancy from everyone until she gave birth September 4, Petra added.
The girl’s mother said she was unaware that her daughter was pregnant until that day, saying that when she asked her daughter about her weight gain, she was told that it was because of appetiser pills, Petra continued.
The mother said, on the delivery day she and two of her daughters took the pregnant woman to a vacant apartment in their building where they helped her deliver the baby.
According to police investigators, the eldest daughter stayed to clean the apartment floor while the mother and her youngest daughter wrapped the baby in a green towel, placed her in a carton and threw her in a trash bin, ignoring the young mother’s request to leave her in a public park.
The baby girl, named Omaimah, survived being crushed by a trash compressor thanks to a street cleaner who heard her screams.
One of the young father’s female relatives told the Jordan News Agency, Petra, news agency that she went twice to see the girl’s family to propose on his behalf, but they rejected the proposal, claiming she was already engaged.
The young man told police that he received a phone call from the girl’s sister telling him that his girlfriend gave birth. When he asked to see the baby, he was told that the infant had died.
Now the two parents are to remain jailed until they are tried for adultery, a charge that carries a minimum sentence of five years, legal experts said.
This can be voided if parties to the case, mainly the woman’s family, drop personal rights or reconcile and the couple are married by the administrative governor. [Jordan Times]
Are you kidding me? Adultery?!
Two people had a baby and THREW HER IN THE TRASH!
Are you telling me the best charge the prosecutor could come up with was “adultery”?! Really?!
How about attempted murder?
How about charging the sister for being an accomplice!?
I don’t know! Heck, I’m not a lawyer!
But Adultery?!
Come on!
One more thing: I don’t understand this whole “If her parents reject me then the sex will have to do” mentality.
I agree… I was totally infuriated when I read this in the Jordan Times this morning!! Why is the girl’s mom running loose when she is the one who threw the baby in the trash?? Isn’t she a cold-blooded murderer?
Besides, what’s with dropping the charges if the woman’s family drop personal rights?? What kind of logic is behind that law?
I want to look up that part of Jordanian law about adultery being a crime, because I thought they changed that some years ago.
Yeah it really makes me angry
I’ve raised this point on your blog about a week ago
http://www.black-iris.com/2007/09/16/how-to-get-married-if-her-parents-reject-you/#comment-87511
I’m still baffled, are they hiding something? What are the judges names?
I think that the legal aspect is and should be the least of their concerns, I’m afraid that one of the family members on either side of the fence would want to look like a hero in the eyes of the general public and proceeds to murder one or both of them under the pretense of honor crimes. All he has to say is that he wants to cleanse his honor and since he heard the story he was going through ongoing fit of rage. Should they escape the honor killing part, the main characters ought to be charged with fornication, I don’t know if there is such a charge under the law, as for the girl’s mother she ought to be charged with the abandonment of a newly born baby and also endangerment of his/her life. As for the aunt she should be charged with being an accessory to the jeopardizing and exposing the infant’s life to grave danger.This is something novel to me, during my time sex before marriage was a big taboo, I hope that this doest become a trend.
Actually, I never thought that adultery was even a crime. Especially that the law says that the age of consent for sex is 16+, so how can there be a law against adultery when the law states that there is an age for consensual sex? Plus, isn’t adultery defined as a sexual relationship when one of the two parties is a married adult? I think that the mother should’ve been charged for attempted murder; and not the daughter herself. But of course, the rule of law does not prevail in Jordan. Judges themselves rule based on whim and not reason.
But honestly, what truly upsets me, is how the whole country is taken with this case. I regard it as a personal matter and not as a piece of gossip for the country to talk about (it just shows you how much we love to discuss the lives of others, instead of minding our own business). Ye3ni, don’t people have better things to worry about than to nose into other people’s business? Ye3ni now is the time for investigative journalism in Jordan to shine?! When it involves teenage sex?! (Of course the sex scandals under the very dome of the parliament NEVER made it to the papers, and might never will).
I’m trying to say that this whole thing could’ve been resolved by simply returning the baby to the mother, committing the mother and father to some sort of family counseling and protection program. It just seems that the press loves to feast on any story that is sex-related. And our judiciary system really tries to expose these stories, so that people feel that the country is becoming “morally bankrupt”. Interestingly enough, you never hear about the stories were foreign domestic labor are being murdered. You only read about honor killings and theft crimes in our papers. But when something has the slightest connection to human rights, you just never hear about it.
I just REALLY hate the fact, that the victim here, is as usual, the girl who had sex before marriage. And it sends the message to girls: “If you wanna have sex, find a doctor to do an abortion before you get pregnant.”
That retarded, the baby looks cute.
This is tragic indeed! Adultery!!? My god!
As you said, Attempted murder. infanticide!, attempting to hide the body and obstruct the law.
By the way, these things are not that new, 10 years ago, my friend’s mother heard a weird sound coming from the trash. She called the police and by the time they arrived to investigate, the baby wasn’t as lucky as this one. They found a baby that has been eaten by the cats. It was so sad!
“Morals” and “honor” are more “valuable” than human lives I guess. This is just sick. The whole story is sick. From the damn refusal of parents of the marriage proposal to this tragic end.
The Hajjaj cartoon says it all..
For most Jordanians, the sin of having sex without marriage is worse than throwing a kid in the trash. I’m sure that a decent precentage of Jordanisn would not oppose throwing the kid in the trash if her partent were unmarried at the time of conception and are unwilling to get married.
and I have to agree with Pheras, I took one course in law in Jordan in 1997 and at that time it was not illegal for two adults to have sex if they were single.
The story is a real disgrace! Adultry? I mean, come on??!!! this is one reason why we will always be a backward country, because lives being taken away are less important than sex!! scandelous!
Sana, you’re on the money. Irrespective of what the charges resolve to be, why don’t people take more notice of the motive rather than the crime itself?
The charge of adultery not only exposes this country’s gross judicial hypocrisy, valuing (pseudo) moral sanctity over human life, it also illustrates a profoundly misguided and depressing value system amongst its people. The bottom line is that that baby would never have been left to die if the mother and father had not had to face the crippling stigma of having a child out of wedlock. Think of the implications here; honour killing, estrangement, expulsion from the family etc. None of this mitigates trying to get rid of the baby, but it certainly rationalises it.
I think this incident should not only force some serious questions about the law, but some introspection on the question of why anyone would go to these extremes to bury such a prosaic but wonderful reality: the birth of a child.
FYI for those unaware of adultery laws in Jordan:
Article 282 of the Jordanian Penal Code [as per Temporary Law no. 86 of 2001]:
1- A consenting adulterer and adulteress will be punished by 1 to 3 years in jail.
2- The prison term may not be commuted to 2 years if the adulterers are married.
3- The punishment is 3 years of the act of adultery takes place in the marital home.
Article 283:
– Admissible evidence to prove adultery is either being caught in the act, or a judicial confession, or indisputable documentation of the act.
Article 284:
1- Adulterers may not be pursued without spousal complaint if they are married, or without the guardian’s. If one adulterer is pursued then both will be pursued…
2- Accusations are inadmissible after 3 months of the accuser’s knowledge of the crime. Accusations are also inadmissible if 1 year had passed on the crime itself.
please mind my translation skills! you can read them in arabic in the Official Gazette (al-jareeda al-rasmiya) vol. 4524, pp. 6027-6028.
I am really sad that human life is so cheap in a country that is supposedly a Muslim country. It’s not her fault that her parents are adultrests, who only care about sexual intercourse pleasure. A society that produces such individuals should take a serious look at its screwed up ways in raising its members. Animals are more responsible than both of these parents, animals females will die defending their offsprings. We talk about western societies and their looseness, and we are becoming worse. I am so sad to see my country becoming like a whore house every body going after their lust,they lost their fear and love of God, and they worship their desires and in that course they loose their humanity. Cry my beloved Jordan!
Sorry Abdullah but it is probably because of people like you that the parents of the child threw it away so they would not be open to the lashing of society because they had a child outside of wedlock! so what they had sex? so what they are not married? the point is we should get out of this habit of turning everything into a tabboo and maybe then unmarried parents would not resort to throwing away innocent babies!
Keep it up Sana, knowing that somebody thinks that way in Jordan makes me feel A LOT better.
Sana,
You are wrong and deadly wrong again. Having sex out of marriage is a major sin and should not be taken lightly but killing is even a bigger sin. It’s the problem with people like you who do not have fear of Allah to commit fornication and find it normal and nothing wrong with it. You and your like making this country of ours a place that can bring the wrath of Allah on it later. If Allah is patient with us, and has not punished us with a major calamity that does not mean to take him for granted and indulge more in sins without regard to his commands. What those people did was dead wrong and don’t you think that if you use pills or other methods to stop the pregnancy you are safe! the fact that you comitting a major sin like that without the slightest feeling of guilt is an invitation to to the wrath of Allah that can take so many forms, the least is what we see now of high inflation, which the rich are not feeling but they will feel something else that Allah will send them. Defying Allah with sins Sana brings gravious consequences, may Allah protect us from it . Oh Allah do not punish us with what the fools and irresponsible do!
I second Pheras’s emotion. Brava, Sana!
Abdullah, with people like you in this world, we ARE living under Allah’s wrath! Who are you to say what is right and what is wrong? Do you consider yourself a god? What someone does is between them and their God, you have no say Sir. Sex is not evil, people who think like you make it seem evil. It is not what you do Sir that makes something good or bad, it is why and how you do it and what you think about it that makes it good or bad. In your case Abdullah, don’t have sex because it will definitely be bad.
I’m curious, what will happen to this baby? It’s obvious that her family isn’t going to take the baby and care for it. And his family won’t since he dumped her because she wouldn’t have an abortion. So, if they go to jail… WHO will take care of the baby? Will she be put in an orphanage? Will her mother see her again?
Pheras and Sesame thanks 🙂
Abdullah, how dare you judge me or claim that I have no fear of God. Do you know me? Do you know anything about me? The answer is a big NO, so you do not get to judge me! Very touching religious lecture but not really useful, instead of counting how many people are having sex, try to count how many so- called “Muslims” steal, how many gamble, how many talk about people behind their backs! Aren’t these the fundementals of our religion but no one gets worked up about these things now adays! Wake up and smell the coffee and maybe read a useful book that will widen your horizons and learn that it is only God who judges not you and me Mr. Sheikh!
SANA,
YOU HAVE IMPLICATED YOURSELF WITH YOUR OWN WORDS, I DID NOT JUDGE YOU OR CARE ABOUT YOU AS A PERSON BECAUSE I DO NOT LNOW YOU. BUT ALL WHAT I DID WAS RESPONDING TO YOUR RESPONSE IN WHICH YOU MADE ZENA WHICH IS A MAJOR SIN SOUND LIKE IT’S SUCH A SMALL SIN AND AT WORST ITS SOMETHING TO BE ONLY CARED ABOUT BY THE SINNER. I WILL REPEAT IN CASE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND, SINS WHEN THEY ARE PUBLISISED THEY ARE NO MORE A CONCERN OF THE SINNER ONLY BUT THE WHOLE SOCIETY. TAKE AN EXAMPLE IF YOU DO NOT FAST AND KEEP IT TO YOURSELF IT IS BETWEEN YOU AND ALLAH ALONE, BUT IF YOU PUBLISIZE IT AND YOU DEFY ISLAM WITH IT, ITS NO MORE YOUR PRIVATE PROBLEM. GROW UP BY THE WAY AND DO NOT TWIST WORDS TO COVER YOUR PROBLEM, AND BY THE WAY YOU DO NOT KNOW ME HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME? 🙂 SEE IT WORKS BOTH WAYS.
First of all I think that you are very rude and even if I do get to meet someone like you I will definitly not spend 1 minute of my time speaking to you. No need for all the capital letters and I do not have a “problem to cover” except that we have ناس متخلÙÂØ© like you. I do not think that I need to grow up as you are the one acting like an angry teenager who learnt something at school and wants to show off with it. I didnt judge you, but good try to use my words in order to seem smart! The parents of the baby did not PUBLISIZE that they had sex and I do not think that the poor baby should pay the price. Also, whether you agree with it or not, sex outside of marriage is NOT a crime in Jordan so maybe you should live and let live! Again I think that you should go read a book or something!
Ok, let me get this straight…God is causing inflation in Jordan because He’s mad at adulterers? This statement is so objectionable on so many levels, but let me just discuss a few:
1. How petty is such a God? To get so angry at people for having sex outside of marriage? There is so much death & destruction, so much tragedy & sorrow in the world – is there really any time, or justification, or merit in condemning the physical expression of love, or the pursuit of pleasure?
2. Let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that having sex is a ‘major sin’ that warrants God’s wrath, how petty would He have to be to punish aaallll of Jordan for the sexual shenanigans of *some* of its citizens?
3. God gets involved in inflation & Economics? To displace blame onto God for economic (& other) situations is to displace responsibility away from humans. God the Financier is just as silly as God the Real Estate Agent (God did not ‘promise the Land of Milk & Honey’ to the Jews, warring humans did).
Btw, Sana didn’t ‘publicize’ anything. Her words & opinions cannot harm you. And someone’s private actions – even if you know about them – cannot harm you either. If someone holds a gun to your head & forces you to have sex outside of marriage, *then* you’d have a complaint. And that wouldn’t be sex anyway, that’d be rape.
You sound like some Christian Evangelicals in the U.S. – blaming ‘the immorality’ in that country for the tragedy of 9/11. Or the sex industry in Asia for the devastating tsunami. In the former event, 19 men were responsible. In the latter, nature was responsible. Not some cruel & vengeful God.
What will happen to the baby?
I wish I knew, Michon.
Sana,
I am gonna go away from the side issues you are trying to raise so you will not answer to the main one here. Irrespect of what the secular government is coinsidering crime or not. In the book of Allah Sex outside marriage is a crime punishable as it is stated in Surat Anoor. Denying such a crime is indicates that you are either some one who does not believe in the book of Allah, or one who commits the act of sex outside marriage and you do not find it objectionable.
As for the act of killing of a human being to hide such a crime is a hedious act that we don’t differ on.
For the record I do not find your kind of people either of interest to me. So that is mutual I guess. To you your religion and to me mine.
As for Sesame ,
We Muslims believe in God and we believe he runs the whole world and nothing no matter how small or big moves without His permission. He is teh Lord. So that will answer all what you have responded with. Failing to understand that brought wrath of God on previous nations that was destroyed because like you your likes deny God and his powers to run every aspect of this universe and the lives of his creation.
Read Islam 101 to understand how Muslims believe if interested, so I am not going to argue with you on that.
Abdallah I respect your strong Islamic faith and your belief in what Allah says is forbidden through the Qur’an (and respective sunna if you’re a sunni).
But then why aren’t you advocating for the application of the hudood punishment for adulterers? Isn’t that the true Islamic way to punish these people who sleep around outside marriage?
Oh and while we’re at it, let’s also apply the hudood punishment for gossiping and perhaps we’ll all get punished together. Reintroducing stoning and whipping will transform us into a real muslim umma, no?
Imad,
I do support the law of Allah being implimented, but you cannot do that in a vacuum. As once some one said ” Raise the state of Islam inside yourself , it will be established in your land”. Hudood cannot be established alone without the rest of Islam being practiced, that is counter Islamic, for example you cannot practice Hudood while you are practicing Riba “Interest in nowadays financial terms”. The act of adulteration “Ghash” whether in products or dealings can be as lethal as adultery. So in a nutshell, take Islam as a whole, because we cannot take from it what we like and leave what we dislike.Such “tab3eed” that is taking what u like and leaving what you dislike , like what some countries claiming to be Islamic countries do now, is more dangerous and against Islam like nothing else as it produces generations of hypocrites that they do not realize that they are. That is generations of lost identity. For example we worry about some one committing adultery and not worry about our land going to invaders, we do not worry about our freedom that was guaranteed by Allah.Unfortunately we narrowed our Gheera to the woman private organ.
While we have no Gheera for our country, our deen, our prophet, our Lord Allah. That been said does not make Zina halal or less of a major sin as Sana and others wanted. Wallahu almusta3an
as you said WTF…excuse my french
this’s as a license to kill any unwanted babys especially girls..
what can we do SERIOUSLY
Abdullah, it is interesting to see how you automatically created the ” us and them” situation. This is exactly why Arabs are always backwards because we never agree on anything.. Did you ever think why Israel is so successful? It is because Jews from all over the world, no matter where they come from are united and work together no matter how their cultures may differ..
Second of all, I am not covering anything because my private life is none of your business, but just to be put a limit to your wild imagination, I am happily married!!
I didn’t deny that Zina is forbidden in the Qura’an, however, your views are clearly extreme! Isn’t Saudi Arabia implementing your perfect eutopian world of Islam with all the 7dood? Nonetheless, aren’t they known to be the most corrupt nation in the world? see? your perfect world doesn’t exist… Again, don’t go around judging people because, in God’s books I might be a much better person than you.
Sana,
It seems you do not read well or you do not comprehend what you read, First of all, I never had any interest in you, and using that as a response instead of the issue at hand is just a sign of failure to support your argument. And if you read well you know I do not support partial application of Islam. It is not fair to single Saudi from other countries in the area, each country in the area has its own problems.
I hope that you are better than me, as i do not claim I am better than any one even you. We are here discussing issues and it seems you do need to go back to school to learn how to conduct a discussion without being personal.
Last but not least your stand not considering Zina as a crime in your book is completely rejected especially if you are a Muslim.Even Christians of our countries consider it as a crime. My views are from the Quran, yet you contradict yourself when you say “I didn’t deny that Zina is forbidden in the Qura’an, however, your views are clearly extreme! “that means Quran you claim being extreme, but you did not want to say it upfront.
To conclude on the issue of the post, the mother of the mother of the newborn and her daughters made a big mistake by covering the crime with a bigger crime. They could have informed the child dad, and put him up to his responsibilities, and did not need a scandal
that shook the Jordanian society with All it’s sects.
And to answer you Miss pro Israel, Israel is not successful at all in my book, as the are aggressors, occupiers, and they will eventually vanish no matter how big and strong they get. Arabs are not successful on the other hand because they do not follow the book of their Lord; Allah.
Abdullah – I may not be Muslim, but I am an Arab, so it’s not as though I’m unfamiliar w/Islam. The religion of my upbringing is Christianity, a religion in which God is also considered omnipotent. I am an agnostic now, but even when I was a firm believer, I did not engage in what I see as the displacement of responsibility from man to God.
You are not correct in saying that Christians think ‘zina’ is a crime. Labelling something a crime implies that punishment is warranted. A ‘sin’, yes, but a sin that Christ forgave. When the Pharisees wanted to stone a woman for adultery (much like what you’re advocating, under ‘ideal’ conditions), he said: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
You say that that you would like to see hudood. That you agree w/the punishment of stoning for adultery, for example. Please tell me how you resolve this contradiction: earlier you said that the crime of murder is a more serious one than that of adultery/fornication. So how can you advocate stoning a woman to death (murder) over adultery??
You would like to see hudood? Over my dead body. I’m sure I’m not the only woman who would fight you tooth & nail to prevent such a travesty of justice, such a stripping of our rights. I’m sure many men would too.
Sana’s question about Saudi Arabia was well-placed. It’s interesting that you refuse to answer it.
Sesame,
I felt you were not a Muslim from the start, but that is not my concern now. But your unfamiliarity with Islam other than what you know from others made you fall in this mistake.
Zina is a sin and a crime, Islam requires 4 witnesses that they saw the actual act of Zina to accuse some one of doing so, Islam does prefer “siter”. The problem here that people put themselves in such a situation where they will be accused of that crime. Yes killing is a bigger sin and the punishment is to be executed for it.
Again you too are compelled to respond with your hatred rather than your logic. I have not mentioned any thing about Stoning to death as a punishment, as that is only applies to married couples who commit adultery and not single ones that have not been married before. So that does not apply. So I advice you too to learn how to read and read with your eyes and not with what hatred you have in your heart.Eventually it will be practiced Hudood that is inshallah over your dead body, because hudood applies to Muslims only not to Christians so fly away its no concern of yours here.
I am not going to make it Muslims Vs. Christians here, but you have no say so in telling Muslims what to do, or interfering in their religion. We have been giving you freedom of belief and practice for centuries and you should respect that, we have not done to you like what you guys did to us in Spain. Your mere existence and the freedom given to you is a proof of the goodness of the Islamic law with you. If I were you i will not push it further.
One more thing, mind your own business and do not impose your wrong beliefs on Muslims, we have Quran to tell us what is right and what is wrong not you or your likes. I consider Saudi Arabia with all its contradictions still better than some other places, that is because it’s people have so many goodness among them.
As far as for Christianity, read your bible well again, it does not condone Zina and it does consider it a major sin as well but what Jesus peace upon him meant which you failed to understand that those who are contradicting their words with their actions so thats why he answered what he answered. Neither you, I, Jesus or any one else have the ability to judge the final fate of a sinner because we are all sinners but the best among all are the ones that repent from the sin.
I take this chance to call you back to Allah, and to Islam as death is so near to the human being, think what you gonna face Allah with.
Finally to you is your faith and to me is mine, and none is going to be asked of what the other did.
Abdullah – Kindly desist in your accusations that ‘I don’t know how to read’. I read you perfectly well. And I don’t care if the ‘crime’ is adultery (2 married people) or fornication (2 singles), & I don’t care if 4 people witness the ‘crime’, or 400, the punishment does not fit the ‘crime’.
It *is* my business – this is my country too, & I have Muslim friends who find this way of thinking just as objectionable as I do. I care about them & their freedom.
I am not trying to ‘make this into a Christian vs Muslim thing’ – I was responding to your misguided claim that Christians think adultery is a *crime*. I’m afraid you’re the one who has misread Christ’s words in that instance, but you’re entitled to your interpretation.
Oh, and *I* am not responsible for the Inquisition, the Crusades or any other atrocity committed by Christians throughout the ages. Are you responsible for those committed by Muslims??
I am an Arab, just as you are. I am *entitled* to freedom of belief & practice, just as you are. Just as my Muslim friends who disagree with you are. And I do not appreciate the veiled threat in the words: “If I were you I wouldn’t push it further’.
This is not about a struggle over religion for me. It’s about human rights. To be quite honest, I am so tired of all religions – they don’t seem to have helped us achieve much peace in this region, have they? And this little exchange between you & me is proof plenty of that.
Just a quick p.s. I have absolutely no problem with, in fact I *respect*, those who practice their religion (Islam, Christianity, etc…) without trying to impose it on others.
Sesame, I have to apologise on behalf of all the Muslims about these idiotic comments that Abdullah has come up with… “We” have not tolerated you or whatever he is argueing, each one of us has a freedom to choose his or her faith and it is down to NO ONE to dictate anything to anyone.
Abdullah, you are really sad and people like you give Islam a bad name to be honest! I am not pro-Israeli , however, Jews are more united than Arabs and thats a fact whether you agree or not!
Really? Saudi Arabia is better than many other countries?? why?? do u know that S.A has the highest rate of gay people within its “God-fearing community”.. Man, seriously go read a book, maybe then you will come across as someone more educated!
if all of you can keep from personal attacks and stick to engaging in a little constructive dialogue, that would be great.
thanks
Sana – Thank you, that’s very sweet of you. And believe me, I know – I’ve had Muslim friends like you all my life, here & abroad. You don’t need to apologize – the thoughts expressed here are not *your* thoughts.
Nas – I too hope that some constructive dialogue can come out of this.
Sana,
I don’t need some one who promote Zina like you and some one who is agnostic Like Sesame to to tell me about what is going on. I know pretty well what is going on. I have worked in sensitive positions to know what is going on more than you can even dream off.
But the truth is none of you know exactly what are you talking about.
As for reading 🙂 the book has been my friend from the time I was a young boy till now and till I die. I am not here to waste my time on both of you because apparently as it shows what you are concerned about is attacking some one on the personal level than addressing the issue at hand, your tactic is well known.
So Sana do not apologize on my behalf as I do not belong to the group you are from, as a matter of fact there is a huge distance between the way I think and the way you do, you belong to Pro-agnostic group like your friend Sesame, and you are very much interested in destroying the binding fabric of this society.
Sesame I am not accusing you of crime the crusades committed with the name of Christ, and do not even dare to compare Muslim Atrocities with Crusaders ones. If Muslim as you accuse us committed atrocities
they will not claim it in the name of Islam as Islam is very well clear of that. In the bible: Deuteronomy 5:18 “You shall not commit adultery.” Genesis 38:24 :
24 About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.”
Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!”
Your book may have not brought to you the full code of conduct for that time but our Quran did, and has made it a crime with a punishment as in Surat Annoor.
So please, spare us your talk as I have showed you from your own book
what was the punishment imposed, Muslims do not burn people for their sins, only Allah can punish with that kind of punishment.
The crime of of adultery is a major Sin and should be treated as such and not belittled and made like a smaller sin. Any one who commits such a crime and no one witnessed him to bring the punishment on him has to realize that Allah sees it all, and he or she will be punished in the day of judgment accordingly unless he or she repents and Allah will cover it for him or her on the day of judgment like He did in this life. But to keep bragging about it and saying its no crime and its ok to do, NO IT IS NOT.
The Jordanian law in that regard is a man made law and it does not make it a crime unless it satisfied certain conditions, that does not mean we have to go and fornicate when ever we can, because the Lord of the lords Allah, said its a crime.
Sana you may choose the path you already chosen but that is your free will but do not claim it is not a crime, I advice you to cease that line of thought as it takes you away from the way of your Lord.
Allah has forbidden taking Christians and Jews as awliya2 and you are doing so. In this case Sesame is even not Christian who the Quran acknowledge as people of the book with special treatment compared to the Kafirs but she is agnostic for God sake.
May Allah gather me with the Muslims and each of you gathered with her likes on the day of Judgment Ameeen.
This is a sad story but no matter what we do or say or whatever we think is right or wrong,people will have sex, married or not!!!
So the best solution to prevent an “Oppssy†is using “protection”!!! lol
Abdullah –
Deuteronomy & Genesis are part of the Old Testament which was written & compiled *before* the birth of Christ.
As for the rest of your post, it’s just plain nasty. I refuse to stoop to your level.
WTF,
What a classy comment (eyeroll). Why can’t this topic be discussed without minds & tongues being in the gutter?
The new testament didn’t negate the law of Moses (Old testament), oh I forgot you are agnostic so that does not matter to you. Truth is nasty huh?
Abdullah you do not know what you’re talking about. There is absolutely no way that Jesus ever advocated or condoned the burning or stoning of adulterers. There is a reason why it’s called the *New* Testament. ‘Love thine enemy as thyself’ replaced ‘an eye for an eye’. Forgiveness replaced hypocrisy & a judgemental attitude. I may be agnostic, but I know the Bible. Besides, I admire the gentle nature of Christ. Unfortunately, the following statement by Gandhi is often true:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
And, unfortunately, the above sentiment is often true of other religions. Human nature. What is it that you were trying to say above? That ‘no real Muslims” have committed atrocities, but ‘real Christians’ have? Or that only Christians have committed atrocities in the name of Christianity? Hmmm. No biased outlook there at all, lol!
“*Truth* is nasty”?? Nope, try again.
Sesame,
You accused me of knowing nothing, fine!
Let’s go back to the question at hand: Does the bible prohibit sexual relationships outside marriage? Does it consider it a crime?
Well, in the process of answering such questions I have to distinguish between the following: The current so called Bible, and the sayings of our prophet Jesus peace be upon him.
I have to admit that I found the current so called Bible (which Muslims believe it is a collection of stories and narration about early Christians through out Christianities and have a mix of very few narrated Jesus (PBUH) sayings and very few direct words of God’s compared to Quran which is totally God’s words revealed to our Seal of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH)) is infested with Graphic X-Rated Pornography.
I could see where your confusion is but never the less here what I found:
These are the ten things God forbids:
1. Fornication: Fornication is immoral sex. It comes from the Greek word porneia which means “unclean.” This broad term includes sexual intercourse outside of marriage (1 Corinthians 7:2, 1 Thessalonians 4:3), sleeping with your stepmother (1 Corinthians 5:1), sex with a prostitute (1 Corinthians 6:13, 15-16), and adultery (Matthew 5:32).
2. Adultery: Adultery, or sex with someone who is not your spouse, is a sin and was punishable in the Old Testament by death (Leviticus 21:10). In the New Testament, Jesus expanded adultery to mean not just physical acts, but emotional acts in the mind and heart (Matthew 5:28).
3. Homosexuality: The Bible is very clear that for a man to have sex with a man or woman to have sex with a woman is detestable to God (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9).
4. Impurity: These are several Greek words which are translated as “impurity.” To become “impure” (in Greek, molvno) can mean to lose one’s virginity (Revelation 14:4), or to become defiled, due to living out a secular and essentially pagan lifestyle (1 Corinthians 6:9, 2 Corinthians 7:1). The Greek word rupos often refers to moral uncleanness in general (Revelation 22:11).
5. Orgies: For a married couple to become involved in sex orgies with different couples is an obvious violation of (1), (2), and (4) and needs no discussion.
6. Prostitution: Prostitution, which is paying for sex, is morally wrong and condemned throughout Scripture (Leviticus 19:29, Deuteronomy 23:17, Proverbs 7:4-27).
7. Lustful passions: First, let us tell you what this does not mean. Lustful passion does not refer to the powerful, God-given sexual desire a husband and wife have for one another. Instead, it refers to an unrestrained, indiscriminate sexual desire for men or women other than the person’s marriage partner (Mark 7:21-22, Ephesians 4:19).
8. Sodomy: In the Old Testament, sodomy refers to men lying with men. The English word means “Unnatural sexual intercourse, especially of one man with another or of a human being with an animal.” Unfortunately, some Christian teachers have erroneously equated sodomy with oral sex. In the Bible, sodomites refer to male homosexuals or temple prostitutes (both male and female). In contemporary usage, the term sodomy is sometimes used to describe anal intercourse between a man and woman. This is not the meaning of the biblical word.
9. Obscenity and coarse jokes: In Ephesians 4:29, Paul says, “Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth.” The Greek word for unwholesome is very descriptive and literally mans “rotten” or “decaying.” In Ephesians 5:4, the Bible warns us to avoid “silly talk” or, as it is called in some versions, “coarse jesting.” We have all been around people who can see a sexual connotation in some innocent phrase and then begin to snicker or laugh. This is wrong. However, this does not rule out appropriate sexual humor in the privacy of marriage, but rather inappropriate sexual comments in a public setting.
10. Incest: Incest, or sex with family members or relatives, is specifically forbidden in Scripture (Leviticus 18:7-18; 20:11-21).
I would go back to John 8:1-11 which I was referring earlier in my discussion:
1
But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2
At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4
and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5
In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”
6
They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
8
Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10
Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11
“No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Many Christians use these verses to justify fornication and pornography. We all know well that the Bible contains the most disgusting Graphic X-Rated Pornography. And the use of John 8:1-11 does indeed raise a great concern to Morals and Ethics.
When Jesus peace be upon him refused to stone the woman, HE ACTUALLY REFUSED TO BE A HYPOCRITE! You have failed to see that in that verse.
Have he ordered the stoning of the woman, he would have been indeed a hypocrite, because people in charge of authority back then were not following anything in the Law properly. He even called them “hypocrites” in several occasions; see Matthew 6:2, 5, 16, Matthew 15:7, Matthew 22:18, Matthew 23:13, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29, Matthew 24:51, Mark 7:6 and Luke 13:15 in the Bible. So why punish the weakest citizen and leave the cause of the corruption?! That was the Message that Jesus peace be upon him gave to the people back then. Notice that John 8:6 clearly says “They were using this question as a trap”, which clearly means that the situation of John 8:1-11 was no more than a trap to make Jesus peace be upon him make a mistake. That’s why HE DIDN’T ALLOW THEM TO OUT SMART HIM AND FORCE HIM TO GIVE ANY JUDGMENT AGAINST THE WOMAN. Jesus peace be upon him didn’t in anyway nullify the Laws of GOD Almighty regarding punishment for adultery.
Keep in mind that Jesus spoke highly of the Old Testament’s Law:
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Old Testament’s laws: “Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)†It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single “letter” of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.’ (Matthew 23:1-3)†We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.
If it’s ok in Christianity to have sex before marriage, ok to live with someone without marriage (like boyfriend or girlfriend), ok to have anal sex with the same gender (see http://www.godlovesfags.com and see the thousands of Christians who support them through their guest book) or the other gender, ok for the brother to sleep with his sister, ok for people to expose most of their bodies (by wearing bikinis for instance), ok to spread wickedness among society, then:
WHAT’S NOT OK TO DO THEN????!!!! AND WHY DID GOD DROWN TO DEATH THE PEOPLE OF LOTT AND NOAH THEN? DIDN’T THEY DO THE SAME EXACT THING AS THE CHRISTIANS ARE DOING TODAY FROM SODOMY, AND ILLEGAL SEX WITHOUT MARRIAGE??!!
For those Christians who think that John 8:1-11 is a justification to their Whoredom (i.e., committing illegal sex openly and freely as mentioned above), then let me tell you that your Bible is ambiguous, self-contradicting and unclear.
Let’s assume for a second and go along with their arguments that John 8:1-11 indeed justifies illegal sex, then what about the following verse that clearly contradicts it?
Jesus killed the adulteress’ children:
“So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)”
All what the woman was doing is committing adultery, which is something very common among most Christians in the West today anyway with their “boyfriend-girlfriend living together” to “one night stand” to “having sex with his date or girlfriend”, etc. as clearly mentioned above.
Of course Adultery is punishable in Islam. But I wonder why did Jesus kill the woman’s innocent children? What did they do? All this to prove something to the Churches?! I thought you should love your enemies and forgive them! It’s not like the woman had killed anybody!! Let alone her children didn’t have any part of Jesus and their mother! There is no record in the Bible of these children committing any crimes or sins!
The Bible, with all due respect to Christians, is ridiculously ambiguous and self-contradicting! There is always room for finding excuses for wickedness as some extreme Christians do such as the Homosexuals and the Sexually Liberated. There is no solid ground for anything in the Bible. When you think you found an answer for a question or an issue, you can almost always find a contradiction or conflicting verse that nullifies it.
Finally we do not face the same issue in Islam, the issue at hand is settled clearly in Quran and no place for ambiguity. As for hypocrites we have them in all religions and they only implicate themselves and not the religion as you have said. So we cannot use their acts as an example to what the religion says. In case of Quran it left those hypocrite no excuse, as the prohibition is clear.
So to conclude Fornication and Adultery are major sins and in Islamic code it’s a crime while in REAL ORIGINAL Christian code (Jesus sayings) it is as well but ambiguous to some extent with the current Bible.
Good grief, Abdullah – I didn’t accuse you of knowing *nothing* – don’t get so defensive – I accused you of not understanding the Biblical points under discussion here. And I still stand by my ‘accusation’ – you don’t understand them.
Also you sure jump to a lot of conclusions, don’t you? Where did I ever *condone* adultery?? Nowhere. What I have always said is that I don’t think it should be dealt with by killing the adulterer/adulteress. It’s a private matter between the people involved.
I don’t have the time today to read the whole of your post or respond to it. Tomorrow.
sigh…ok, I had a little time tonight after all, read your post. I had a hunch that these were not your words (different language, tone etc…) googled a bit & voilà, here is the site you took this material from wod for word:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_adultery.htm
You really should cite your sources. And this site seems to specialize in pulling quotes out of context, & in denigrating Christians & westerners.
It also seems to be a spiteful response for the equally spiteful site:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/index.html
Why don’t you go there & tell me how fair *that* site is.
Sesame,
First you accuse me then you accuse the site, endless accusations. Why in the world you do not answer the points in question. Seems to you every body is wrong and you are right. It does not matter where the material is pulled as long as it addresses the issue at hand. I believe that even Jesus if he is to come it won’t be enough for you. You are the arguing type, and you think that you can score a point by accusing period. I am not writing a paper for school to site references. Bring me from your own Bible what negates my words. I am not going to ask you what site you went to. I would rather answer to the issue at hand. Amazing how some people claim to be right yet they argue with no evidence. Let’s agree with you it’s out of context I challenge you to bring something to the contrary.
Bring what ever you think it’s right in your opinion and answer the questions that I attempted to answer.
Your method is similar to the politicians when they have no substance they resort to slandering the opponent. So provide me evidence that your Bible prohibits or allow fornication as simple as that. Can you do such a simple task? Go to whatever sites you want just bring the answer.
LOL, so its ok for married christian couples to have sex outside of the marriage. LOL.
Thank god me and my wife are not christians, LOL.
Adultry is wrong no matter what religion you believe in, whether it be islam, judaism or christianity.
Christians say Jesus gave his life to forgive our sins, that doesnt mean we can commit as many sins as we want.