There are several reports of the attack from the Associated Press and BBC but I found the AlBawaba report to be the most detailed thusfar:
Three Jewish terrorists carrying gas canisters threw firecrackers inside the Basilica of Annunciation in the city of Nazareth on Friday evening, wounding several congregants, witnesses said.
The three hid firecrackers and small gas canisters in a baby stroller and activated the firecrackers inside the church during a special prayer for the opening of Lent. According to witnesses, two young Jewish women and a man entered the basilica compound disguised as Christian pilgrims.
Thousands of people gathered around the area in an effort to enter the compound and respond to the assailants. Israeli police used stun grenades to disperse the crowd.
Emergency workers said at least two people were injured in the riot, and others were suffering from tear gas inhalation. Five policemen were injured, officials said.
Advisor to the Latin Archbishop Wadiya Abu Nasser told Haaretz a full report of the incident was forwarded on to the Vatican and to the pope’s office.
The Basilica of the Annunciation, maintained by the Franciscan Order, is the largest in the Middle East. It was built on the traditional site of the annunciation by the Angel Gabriel of the birth of Jesus.
Haaretz also reports some other interesting details (the talkback posts from readers at the bottom of the page are also worth a read)
A Jewish extremist accompanied by his Christian wife and their daughter…
…detonated the firecrackers inside the church during a special prayer for the opening of Lent.
…The male suspect was identified on Channel 10 TV News as 44-year-old Jerusalem resident Haim Eliyahu Havivi. Police had questioned him in the past after he expressed intentions to attack churches in Israel.
…Channel 10 TV News reported the Shin Bet domestic security service said Havivi is known to suffer from a mental illness.
…At one point, the crowd attacked an ambulance, breaking windows and forcing it to turn away.
Advisor to the Latin Archbishop Wadiya Abu Nasser told Haaretz a full report of the incident was passed on to the Vatican and directly to the pope’s office. Abu Nasser reported Vatican sources said the incident appeared very serious.
Khalil Hadad, a journalist situated in the church, told Haaretz the structure was lightly damaged when a stampede broke out and worshippers attempted to flee after the attack. Hadad said a gas canister remained in the church.
Attack on holy sites, be they Islamic or Christian, are nothing new really. But I wonder if the world will pay more attention now after a major church is attacked?
I wonder if all the Israeli attackers are mentally ill?
Less than a month ago Israeli settlers spray painted anti-Prophet graffiti on the wall of a mosque in occupied West Bank.
Last August they dropped a pig’s head into a mosque in Jaffa, wrapped by a veil on which was written the name of Prophet Muhammad in Hebrew.
While Muslims are viewed as terrorists world wide it doesn’t really matter what religion you are in Palestine. Just being Palestinian makes you a terrorist by default.
Welcome to the new reality.
I’ve just watched the news on Al-Jazeera, one commentator said something and I quote after translating:
“is there’s a special case of mental illness which only Israelis are susceptible to suffer from?, a religious kind of mental illness maybe?”
This is outragous, words can’t describe how I feel. May Allah protect and retaliate for his religions and the congregants.
It is amazing me that the person is found to be mentally ill… they always are… this is the universal excuse… amazing… no?
//But I wonder if the world will pay more attention now after a major church is attacked?//
I don’t know about you but I haven’t even seen it on the American news or on my online headlines. I wonder why attacks on Christians in Palestine don’t get a reaction from the religious right or the mainstream media here, but everytime there’s an attack on Jewish people, everyone’s all riled up. Re: the religious right: is it b/c their ultimate goal (which is to get as many Jewish people into the land as possible in an attempt to bring about the Second Coming) overrides what’s going on now (Christians suffering, or being attacked) to their religious brethren?
Umm Zaid, I think I answered my own question in the end:
“While Muslims are viewed as terrorists world wide it doesnÃ¢??t really matter what religion you are in Palestine. Just being Palestinian makes you a terrorist by default.”
I’ve heard it said before by essentric televangilists in the U.S. that Palestinian Christians are not “real” Christians.
and hey, when the crusades came around the europeans slaughtered both muslims and christians.
this is amazing. no word at all over here in america at all about this.
the jews can do no wrong ever and if anyone ever says anything negative about them, they are automatically called a Nazi and hatemonger.
i can no longer back Israel at all. just because america and Israel have a common enemy, Islam, that does not mean that we are friends at all.
The couple attacking the church are really mentally ill.
Their baby had been taken away from them a few years ago by the Israeli welfare authorities.
They had been fighting the authorities since then.
The name of the man is Chaiim (or Haiim) Chabibi and not anything else.
The fact that they are Israelis should not change the fact that they are real people with real personal problems.
Please spread the word among Arab bloggers so that the truth about them will be told corretly.
MUSLIMS ATTACK HOLY HINDU STATUE!
Some of you guys were right! They always do blame it on mental illness.
I await the rage of the Muslim world over this offense. Muslims have offended around a billion people on the planet with this outrage! 😉
Perhaps we should burn some Qu’rans for this unforgivable offense! 😉
samartin, im surprised (not really) at your sarcastic racism. It’s good that you posted a link though so people can actually read and tell the difference between the stories.
i wonder what Muslims have to do with Israelies attacking a church?
i wonder what the difference is between 1 mentally ill man (as claimed by a father) and 3 adults who apparently must have all been mentally ill (as claimed by the state)
i wonder where the outrage was of the christian world when a holy church was attacked?
there are ways of discussing issues without sarcasm that insults people.
“samartin, im surprised (not really) at your sarcastic racism.”
I’m sorry that your surprised at my so-called racism. Not really. 😉 More seriously, I’m sorry you can’t handle a little bit of friendly sarcism and teasing.
Listen, even if I hated every Muslim on the planet (which I don’t by any stretch) that would still not make me a racist. Muslims come in all sorts of races, from white northern Europeans (John Walker Lindh, a white Muslim I definitely hate) to Arabs, Turks, Albanians, Persians, Indians, Uyghurs and Malaysians among others. Someone who is anti-Islamic isn’t necessarily racist. Race is an immutable characteristic of a person’s being. Religion is not. You can change your religion but not your race. So please stop with the use of the term ‘racist.’ Then again, if you live in Afghanistan, or other Mulsim countries that impose the death penalty – all in the name of religiously-based Sharia law – on Muslim converts to Christianity, then maybe religion is not so immutable . .
(I’m still waiting for the outrage on that controversy from those Muslims who say that Denmark ‘restricts’ freedom of religion by not punishing cartoons. I say clean up Sharia law’s ‘death for apostates’ provision before going around complaining that freedom of religion is being restricted in Europe because of blasphemous cartoons.)
“i wonder where the outrage was of the christian world when a holy church was attacked?”
Christians, unlike so many Muslims, do not necessarily believe that each and every ‘incident’ requires blood, mayhem and scapegoats or even a peaceful street demonstration. In this instance, the authorities did not tolerate the act and no serious damage was done. Christians do not require a billion apologies or other such niceties.
Besides, you didn’t see Christians demonstrate when Muslims utterly destroyed entire churches during this whole cartoon controversy, did you?
“i wonder what Muslims have to do with Israelies attacking a church?”
The comparison is obvious. It was so nice of the Muslims to demonstrate against an attack on a Christian church (as if the Palestinian Muslims truly gave a damn about their Christian ‘brethren.’)
I’m still waiting for the demonstrations over this Hindu statue. I also notice there were no demonstrations over the detonations of Buddhist statues in Afghanistan by the Taliban. Funny how that is?
“i wonder what the difference is between 1 mentally ill man (as claimed by a father) and 3 adults who apparently must have all been mentally ill (as claimed by the state)”
I don’t know the full details behind this family, but given some of what I read from the stories you posted, at least the main perpetrator sounded pretty insane:
From the Haaretez story you posted: “Habibi had even made his way to the Ramallah headquarters of former Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat several years ago, claiming that Israeli authorities were attempting to confiscate his daughter. At the time, Habibi told Arafat he wanted to remain in PA-controlled territory.”
Why the word of police would be less credible than a simple claim made by a family member that an individual is mentally ill in your mind is beyond me.
I think it is likely that both sets of incidents were related to
“there are ways of discussing issues without sarcasm that insults people.”
This is your blog, Nas. If you don’t like sarcasm then I will avoid it in the future. Sorry you feel that way.
Let us be honest though, Nas. If tomorrow a group of completely sane but evil perpetrators were to destroy Hindu or Buddhist relics or if Muslims attacked Christian churches it would not generate much, if any, outrage in the Muslim world. Certainly not like a Palestinian church being attacked by some wacky Jews,or a mosque being used as a terrorist safe haven being attacked by US soldiers in Iraq or by some Danish cartoons of Muhammad.
Christians, Jews and secular Westerners don’t seethe nearly as much as Muslims do with percieved every insult. Muslims demonstrate wildly, engage in death and destruction, use the most vicious rhetoric and hyperbole and claim that non-Muslims are mean-spirited and intolerant. The problem is that when they insult others, they themselves simply don’t care that much.
samartin, lol call yourself whatever you like, your attacks on Islam and Muslims lack a certain subtilty. Muslims are not going to protest every single thing just so you can say well you know what maybe they’re not hypocrites. Protesting attacks on their religion is a tough schedule to keep these days.
You want to be honest? fine, if it wasnt palestinians who lived in that town and around this church, if it was white europeans, you would’ve seen a huge outrage from the christian community of the world. instead you got only christian palestinians protesting. you failed to answer my question however on what muslims have to do with this attack or the protesters who protested against it. And yes for your information, palestinian muslims and christians, arab muslims and arab christians, are united against Israeli occupation and aggression. If you dont believe me then go to Bethleham or Nazereth, and ask around.
and its ironic, when the Israeli police say that the Israeli who did this was mentally ill we believe them and yet the father who defended his son gets no claim. It’s not a matter of whose wrong, but the irony here is that you fail to even question the credibility of the Israeli police that you gave to the father of this man. especially if we factor in that the Israelis actually planned this out, all 3 of them in the same family dressing up as christian pilgrams. Yeah, I’m sure a mentally ill person would have the capacity to do that, especially with 2 other sane people in his family around. But of course you must have read the detailed reports of this muslim man’s records? oh thats right they didnt release them so I guess this father’s defense must be flaky. On the other hand the records that show that these 3 israelis were mentally ill…well im sure the state of Israel made sure to back up their own claims by releasing them. im sure you read those as well.
I love the way you say “Muslims” and “Islam” with such a broad stroke of generalizing. Wow, now if 1.3 billion Muslims did all the things you accuse them of doing…well that would make the evening news to say the least. I mean a sixth of the world population “seething” everyday…well that would be something.
I honestly do not believe that such demonstrations are a good thing, especially if chaos is the objective. The majority of Muslims believe this, one of the many reasons you didnt see 1.3 billion of us rampaging in the streets. But it doesnt matter what I or we think, because to you and the likes of you all of Islam is to blame and all of Muslims are to blame.
And if the western world or christians for that matter want to remain silent (or rather apathetic) to everything that’s their choice.
I dont care for sarcasm that is intended to insult my religion or my fellow brothers and sisters. I don’t care if you want to stick around or not, but refer to the blog policy in the future before insulting. If you have a bone to pick with Muslims or Islam, take it elsewhere. Rational discussions, fine, but I don’t want to waste my time defending my religion from insults and sarcasm. It shows that your intentions are not to understand but to simply attack
“And yes for your information, palestinian muslims and christians, arab muslims and arab christians, are united against Israeli occupation and aggression. If you dont believe me then go to Bethleham or Nazereth, and ask around.”
Oh, I believe they are united. No doubt. The Palestinian Christian community has a dhimmi-like mentality in regards to the Muslim majority. When a Hamas representative a few years back indicated that Hamas would someday implement a jizya on the Christian population of the Palestinian territories, I heard hardly a single word of protest or condemnation from the Muslim world, Palestinian Muslims or even Palestinian Christians themselves. Yes, clearly they are united. If anything, Palestinian Christians are even more vitriolic on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than their Muslim counterparts perhaps because to be both a Christian and a moderate would be too much for their Muslim neighbors.
“You want to be honest? fine, if it wasnt palestinians who lived in that town and around this church, if it was white europeans, you wouldÃ¢??ve seen a huge outrage from the christian community of the world.”
Nonsense. If it were a white European church we would have seen Arabs ‘dancing in the streets’ and passing out candy just like we saw Palestinians doing after 9/11. Sure, if the incident had been big enough – like the entire church being damaged or destroyed, we might have seen some shallow ‘diplomatic’ condemnations from leaders around the world, but that would be about all.
“I love the way you say Ã¢??MuslimsÃ¢?Â and Ã¢??IslamÃ¢?Â with such a broad stroke of generalizing. Wow, now if 1.3 billion Muslims did all the things you accuse them of doingÃ¢?Â¦well that would make the evening news to say the least. I mean a sixth of the world population Ã¢??seethingÃ¢?Â everydayÃ¢?Â¦well that would be something.”
Gee, Nas, you and your fellow Muslims on this blog don’t frequently use the terms:
in a similar fashion? Really?
When I speak of ‘Muslims’ I am speaking of their culture as a whole, not of each and every individual Muslim. It isn’t that difficult to grasp.
“But it doesnt matter what I or we think, because to you and the likes of you all of Islam is to blame and all of Muslims are to blame.”
You are half-right. It doesn’t matter what you or I think. The fact remains that Muslim societies
encourage and condone violence and terrorism up to a point and then try and escape blame. Does that mean each individual Muslim is to blame? No, of course not. There is something fundamentally wrong with Muslim societies that creates such extremism, though.
No social movement in history requires that every single individual in society participate to have an impact, Nas. Look at an extreme example: Nazi Germany. Not every member of German society in the 1930s and 40s had to participate to make it work. Not every German voted for the Nazi party when given a chance. Not every person participated in the Beer Hall Putsch. Not every person, by any stretch of the imagination, was a member of the Waffen SS or the Gestapo. Yet, through a majority of people being apathetic and tolerance of extremism, Nazi Germany was able to accomplish what it did and what it accomplished was terrible.
By the way (and off the topic), I love the the pictures of Jordan that appear on your blog.
I especially love the one with the children that appear when your blog loads.
Those two children are adorable. 🙂 Do you know who they are?
If you want, we can just drop this subject altogether. I know you don’t want to have to defend yourself or your fellow Muslims all the time and I can hardly blame you. I’m sorry if my posting of the crazy Thai Muslim attacking a Hindu statue offended you. I thought it was rather humorous when I read it and couldn’t help but think of the ‘mentally ill’ Israelis attacking the Church of the Annunciation and the responses people posted.
The comments about insulting Hindus and burning Qu’rans were a sarcastic response to the frequently heard statement of “Europeans have insulted over a billion Muslims with these cartoons” and the burning of Danish flags with a Christian cross on them.
You take me far too seriously, Nas. 😉
Samartin, why would the Muslim world condemn hamas for suggesting a jizya a few years back? the jizya is an Islamic principle and Hamas is a group with strict Islamic values, this was however before it became a party. It won the majority even in towns with christian majorities. what this has to do with absolutly anything is beyond me. Suffice to say religion is not an issue for Palestinians when it comes to Israeli aggression.
ah yes, because arabs love to see a church burn; all 260 million of us. im guessing by arabs you mean muslims. the majority of residents in nazereth are muslims by the way. oh and it was nice that american tv showed all those clips from when saddam hit israel a long time ago. if the church had burned down no one would’ve cared anyway. and yes if it was a european church, or if europeans lived there it would’ve recieved world wide attention without a doubt.
I never use the term Jew to describe israel. Israel is Israel, you cant call it anything else. I’m sure you’re speaking of Muslims as a whole, because of course Muslims, as a whole, are terrorists or evil or whatever. i wonder what the majority of us consists of? 1 million? 2 million? all 1 and a half billion? seething, we practice it on a daily basis. makes me wonder if you’ve ever travelled through the Muslim world or simply draw your conclusions from fox news?
well thank you for comparing Muslims to Nazis. the fact that most Muslims don’t like the fact that their fellow brethern get bombed by foreign forces are oppressed by regimes supported by foreign forces doesnt mean they condone violence or terrorism. in most cases Muslim countries have been affected by terrorism as much as everyone else. and no the majority do not condone it, whether you like it or not. when a few of them roam the streets and burn flags, thats not the majority.
but the nazi analogy…really…that gave me a good laugh. always nice to be compared to a nazi.
“Samartin, why would the Muslim world condemn hamas for suggesting a jizya a few years back? the jizya is an Islamic principle and Hamas is a group with strict Islamic values”
That begs the question then, do you support a jizya, Nas? If you do, how can you expect the West to tolerate Muslims? If you don’t and you really believe a jizya is Islamic as you indicated above, do you consider yourself a Muslim?
“Suffice to say religion is not an issue for Palestinians when it comes to Israeli aggression.”
Other Muslim posters on this board in the past would have to disagree. They would claim that the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict is all about religion. As far as the Palestinian Christians are concerned, their vote for Hamas-backed candidates (sometimes Christians themselves) is a reflection of their weariness with Fatah – who can blame them? Unfortunately, Hamas’ new moderate image is a farce. In the long-term they may find out painfully how dangerous making deals with Islamic fundamentalists can be.
“ah yes, because arabs love to see a church burn; all 260 million of us. im guessing by arabs you mean muslims. the majority of residents in nazereth are muslims by the way.”
Whether Arabs love to see a church burn is irrelevant. Most Arabs either don’t care (the majority) or are overjoyed (a not so insignificant minority) when white Europeans (or Americans) are attacked regardless of whether it is a church or a subway or a plane or a skyscraper.
Yes, in part because of Muslim gerrymandering a few years back, Nazareth is now a majority Muslim city and the Christian population there will probably continue to dwindle – especially if the fundamentalist radicalization of the West Bank occurs along the same lines as it has in Gaza. Unfortunately, it is not easy to be a Christian in the Middle East. It was actually a member of the Bethlehem city council, who is in Hamas, who voice support for implemented a jizya on Christians: Hassam El-Masalmeh. Its a sad day when Christians are becoming a persecuted minority in the very birthplace of Jesus and a warning to the West about the dangers of Islamic radicalism.
“i wonder what the majority of us consists of? 1 million? 2 million? all 1 and a half billion? seething”
Anything above 50% will do. 😉 I never said you have to be angry every day, either. You can take the occasional day off. 😉
“well thank you for comparing Muslims to Nazis”
I never did any such thing. I mentioned that the example I was about to give was extreme not representative. Please read my post more carefully. Don’t be so sensitive. My larger point was that not every person in a movement need be an activist. Many people give tacit support for causes by simply approving of something or failing to disapprove of something.
“but the nazi analogyÃ¢?Â¦reallyÃ¢?Â¦that gave me a good laugh.”
Better to laugh than to seethe. 😉
“That begs the question then, do you support a jizya, Nas? If you do, how can you expect the West to tolerate Muslims? If you donÃ¢??t and you really believe a jizya is Islamic as you indicated above, do you consider yourself a Muslim?”
You’d prefer I suppose that I call myself a Muslim, just not believe in anything in Islam? lol. If there are things you don’t like about my religion thats fine, don’t judge what I believe in. The jizya exists in a purely Islamic state, none of which are in existance today, so yes of course I believe in it, it’s part of my religion after all. I believe in all Islamic laws as long as they are implemented in the context of which they were designed for and not on a whim. The west doesn’t tolerate Muslims either way lol so what does it matter what I believe?
“Other Muslim posters on this board in the past would have to disagree. They would claim that the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict is all about religion. As far as the Palestinian Christians are concerned, their vote for Hamas-backed candidates (sometimes Christians themselves) is a reflection of their weariness with Fatah – who can blame them? Unfortunately, HamasÃ¢?? new moderate image is a farce. In the long-term they may find out painfully how dangerous making deals with Islamic fundamentalists can be.”
What I am saying is that when it comes to facing Israel, Palestinians don’t fight about who is christian and who is muslim, they are united against the aggression because they both feel the same affects of it. Other posters can disagree all they want, what do they have to do with anything? As for Hamas, I have no idea why you keep draging it into the discussion, it serves no purpose. My own belief is that Hamas will fail as a government. It has nothing to do with Israelis attacking a church.
“Whether Arabs love to see a church burn is irrelevant. Most Arabs either donÃ¢??t care (the majority) or are overjoyed (a not so insignificant minority) when white Europeans (or Americans) are attacked regardless of whether it is a church or a subway or a plane or a skyscraper.”
lool I dont think you’ve ever been to any Arab countries or Muslim nations. In Jordan for example the overwhelming majority will condemn any attacks on innocent civilians in subways or skyscrapers or where have you. I feel like your entire knowledge of the Islamic and Arab world is based on “True Lies”, which is a movie with an ironic title considering the discussion
The fact is most of us are against terrorism. The fact is our religion condemns it. The fact is we don’t protest these things because we have nothing to do with them. Bush says his war is against extremists and therefore Bin Laden. Fine, so that means the rest of us dont have anything to do with this.
i think you fail to understand that we are truly the majority. perhaps you’d rather believe that we are all like Bin Laden, the same way all Americans or all Christians are like Bush
“If there are things you donÃ¢??t like about my religion thats fine, donÃ¢??t judge what I believe in.”
As far as what you believe in personally, I won’t judge. The problem is that the west has let millions of Muslims into its country on the assumption that they basically decent, tolerant people not attempting to force their religion on others. If many of them would like to impose that ‘perfect Islamic state’ on the rest of us in the long run then I have to judge this. If there is no way for Muslims to live within the framework of a multireligious society without attempting to dominate others, then I have to judge this also, if this is going to be a limiting factor in achieving justice for non-Muslim religious minorities in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world, then I can’t help but judge that. The aspirations of a cultures, religions and societies are important, like it or not, since they guide the actions of individuals within them. If things like jizya, dhimmi laws, the death penalty for apostates, prohibiting proselytization by other religions, constant jihad on non-Muslims and restricting freedoms that are considered essential for democratic society are a part of true Islam from a supposed moderate like yourself then I question whether there is any such thing as a truly Muslim moderate in the western sense.
(To the country that had the “Boston Tea Party” such a tax would be truly unacceptable. 😉 )
“What I am saying is that when it comes to facing Israel, Palestinians donÃ¢??t fight about who is christian and who is muslim,”
OK. I don’t thing I ever suggested there wasn’t unity on this matter. I think my suggestion was that the unity on so many matters, not necessarily on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, between Muslims and Christians in the Palestinian territories is in part a product of the fear that many Palestinian Christians have of Muslims, not the unity of two groups that have mutual respect and tolerance for one another.
In a previous post you stated:
“in most cases Muslim countries have been affected by terrorism as much as everyone else. ”
In this post you stated:
“The fact is most of us are against terrorism. The fact is our religion condemns it. The fact is we donÃ¢??t protest these things because we have nothing to do with them.”
The fact is that the terrorism you experience in the Muslim world as well as most of the terrorism that is committed in the Western world is a product of Muslim terrorists. The fact is that 9/11 wasn’t committed by Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus. The fact is that the Madrid bombings wasn’t committed by Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus. The fact is that the Amman bombings weren’t committed by Christians or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus. The fact is that these terrorists cite the Qu’ran and the Hadiths (and the interpretations of Islamic religious scholars of these verses from the Qu’ran and the Hadiths) as the source of their inspiration for commiting them. The fact is that since Muslim societies seem to have a difficult time drawing a line between legitimate methods of warfare and terrorism, they essentially encourage it. The fact is that the majority of Muslims may condemn specific acts like the Amman bombing but they don’t see suicide bombings targeting civilians as being illegitimate in all circumstances. The fact is that this lack of unequivocal condemnation of terrorist methods is a slippery slope and that someone who takes a more extreme interpretation of Islam is likely to find some justification for extending it to groups such as Shiites or Christians (Trinitarian polytheists in the eyes of some Muslims) or Hindus (truly polytheists), etc.
P.S. I’ve never actually seen the movie “True Lies” since I heard it got pretty crappy reviews. Was it really as bad as they say? 😉
Typo alert: I said ‘its country’. I meant ‘its countries’.
“If many of them would like to impose that Ã¢??perfect Islamic stateÃ¢?? on the rest of us in the long run then I have to judge this. If there is no way for Muslims to live within the framework of a multireligious society without attempting to dominate others, then I have to judge this also, if this is going to be a limiting factor in achieving justice for non-Muslim religious minorities in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world, then I canÃ¢??t help but judge that.”
It’s funny how in order for Muslims to be “Accepted” we have to abandon everything we believe in, or at least to appease people like you, say we don’t believe in it, and not because we really dont…its because you dont. We’re suppose to abandon all our beliefs in order to suit you or the likes of you. Has there been a rash of Muslim immigrants in the U.S. that are leading some sort of Islamic revolution that I’m not aware of? Just because you dont understand my religion doesn’t give you the right to insult it’s followers, judge it’s followers, or the same towards the religion itself. And I have to question myself on whether you really do question yourself about the existance of moderate Muslims. In my opinion you probably dont. In all liklihood you think all Muslims are terrorists.
“is in part a product of the fear that many Palestinian Christians have of Muslims”
so you’ve been to Palestine and asked Christians whether they are simply united with Muslims because they’re afraid of them?
“The fact is that the terrorism you experience… ”
the fact is most of your “facts” are falsehoods.
people like you who desire nothing more than to prove that Islam is a violent religion will begin to quote things from the Quran or the Hadith al Rassul pbuh. of course all these quotes are naturally out of context and edited to suit the viewing audience. ironically these same quotes are what terrorists use to inspire their own followers.
who do you want to condemn these people? me? others like me? all 260 million arabs? 1.5 billion Muslims? for what? what good is protest? and at the end of day who is doing the protesting? all these people that virtually poor? do you want palestinians to condemn 9/11 when israel soldiers play target practice with them every other day?
it’s not an extreme interpretation per se, its just a wrong one. flat out. and if you believe in it then really you agree with the terrorists interpretation.
“ItÃ¢??s funny how in order for Muslims to be Ã¢??AcceptedÃ¢?Â we have to abandon everything we believe in, or at least to appease people like you, say we donÃ¢??t believe in it, and not because we really dontÃ¢?Â¦its because you dont. WeÃ¢??re suppose to abandon all our beliefs in order to suit you or the likes of you.”
Not at all. Just be straightforward.
If you believe that executing people who convert from Islam to another religion is proper according to Islam and if you desire that Islamic states carry this out, then please say so.
If you want that imposing a jizya or making non-believers pay double taxation is proper please say so.
If you believe that non-Muslims should face the death penalty for proselytization then say so.
If you believe that non-Muslims should have to make their churches and temples inconspicuous and not be allowed to repair them if damaged, then say so.
If you don’t believe non-Muslims should not be able to testify against Muslims under any circumstances then say so.
If you believe that a non-Muslim who murders somebody should be put to death while a Muslim who murders a non-Muslim should only have to pay a fine, then say so. (I guess, if you believe this then maybe Osama should simply be able buy his way out of 9/11.)
If you believe that non-Muslims should never be praised and should be despised and humiliated at every opportunity, then say so.
All of the above (and much more) have been implemented by Islamic states in the past based on Sharia law. If this is your ‘ideal’ then say so. Perhaps, the Taliban wasn’t far off the mark.
I would prefer that we all be honest and know where we both stand in relation to each other.
“Has there been a rash of Muslim immigrants in the U.S. that are leading some sort of Islamic revolution that IÃ¢??m not aware of?”
Not so much in the US but in Europe the signs are troubling. In the UK, for example, 40% of Muslims in a recent poll admitted they would like to see Sharia law implemented in that country. If the interpretation of Sharia law includes those things I just mentioned, I would be very troubled as a European. You need only look around on the message boards where British Muslims (not Muslim organizations engaged in a public relations campaign) frequently post to see the never ending flow of hateful speech about despising their ‘kufr’ countrymen along with the usual rants against US forces in Iraq and Israeli occupation.
“people like you who desire nothing more than to prove that Islam is a violent religion will begin to quote things from the Quran or the Hadith al Rassul pbuh. of course all these quotes are naturally out of context and edited to suit the viewing audience.”
People like who? The terrorists (and their supporting religious scholars) who use the Qu’ran and Hadiths as justification for terrorism.
“itÃ¢??s not an extreme interpretation per se, its just a wrong one. flat out. and if you believe in it then really you agree with the terrorists interpretation.”
I don’t know what you are trying to say. I stated myself that I was giving an example of how political apathy and tolerance of extremism can lead to bad things not making a realistic comparison of Muslims to Nazis, I don’t know what you think is wrong with this interpretation.
If you think I’m completely off base Nas, then go ahead and give me your best explanation as to why so many terrorists originate in the Muslim world. Please don’t use the poverty excuse – poverty exists in many non-Muslim places around the globe. Latin Americans and sub-Saharan Africans don’t go around engaging in al-Qaeda-style attacks or suicide bombings. I don’t care if you think poverty is an contributing factor. Don’t tell me its Palestine either. Indonesian Muslims don’t cut the heads off Christians in their own country because of the Israeli occupation of Palestine. What is it about the Muslim world that makes it such fertile ground for would be terrorists? The institution of religion is the only explanation that seems to fit all the evidence, I believe. You may not believe that the actions of terrorists represent Islam as you interpret it, Nas, but the terrorists apparently do. What do you think causes it all?
Sorry for the numerous typos in the last post. It is late here, I wrote it quickly, I’m really tired and now I am going to bed. Have a nice one Nas. If you want to end the discussion, which is drifting far, far away from the original post, we can do so. If you want this then indicate it somewhere in your next post and I won’t respond any further. If you like the debate, we can keep going. I don’t mind.
Please, don’t be too offended by my response, Nas. I don’t hate you. I don’t hate Muslims. The very few Muslims I’ve ever met personally have seemed like nice people. I guess I just don’t quite understand you people. Maybe the feeling is mutual. 😉
Like everybody else, I’m just looking for answers . . .
Have a nice night (or a nice day in your part of the world), Nas.
“All of the above (and much more) have been implemented by Islamic states in the past based on Sharia law. If this is your Ã¢??idealÃ¢?? then say so. Perhaps, the Taliban wasnÃ¢??t far off the mark”
aaaah! now things have become clear. and here I thought you were trying to be rational if only for a moment. which Islamic states? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? lol none of these are true Islamic states. The latter two especially simply apply the parts of the sharia they see fit. What they will tell you is that an apostate must be killed when in reality it’s only if he leaves Islam and then starts to fight Muslims. A similar sentence would be applied to someone who commits treason and joins the enemy’s army in a war.
and your list is truly endless with fallacies, I could go on and on and on. sadly you probably wont care to listen. suffice to say many of these laws which you stated are either lies (such as: “If you believe that non-Muslims should never be praised…”) or simply not meant to exist unless a truly Islamic state exists. Which none does.
The sharia law should not be implemented in Europe or any other non-muslim nation. it is meant to operate within a specific framework. what you have these days is basically the act of putting water in a ferarri’s gas tank…just because it’s liquid doesnt mean it will make it run.
“despising their Ã¢??kufrÃ¢?? countrymen”
Those same people will call any Muslim who disagrees with them a Kafir as well. And this is not something simple or casual in Islam.
What I am saying is that if you believe that what the terrorists say is true Islam or is even close to it, then that makes you a believer in them does it not? They believe it’s Islam, and so do you. I’m telling you it’s not and you don’t agree so lol what do you want me to do?
samartin, the reason it is drifting far is because you are taking it in all directions. I’m merely responding to what you say, not leading the discussion itself.
suffice to say you have a very strange understanding, or rather misunderstanding, of Islam and Muslims. I think you are stuck to your negative beliefs and I think it would be a waste of time for me to change those beliefs. People believe in whatever they want, rarely can others do anything about it. You can continue the discussion if you like, I’ll simply reply to correct the “misunderstandings” (if we can call’em that). It’s not in me to let such things continue to exist in such a form, at least on my part. Something you may have missed in Islam 101…its an Islamic duty to teach others about our religion even if they want to continue to believe it’s evil.
“here I thought you were trying to be rational if only for a moment. which Islamic states? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? lol none of these are true Islamic states.”
Actually, I was referring to Muslim states of previous times. My point was that all of these things and many more have been implemented previously, and in some cases currently, by states in the name of upholding the Sharia. Let me rephrase it for you: In a hypothetical ideal Islamic society would such discriminatory measures against non-Muslims be acceptable? If so, then why?
“and your list is truly endless with fallacies, I could go on and on and on. sadly you probably wont care to listen.”
Please do go on. I would love to hear some rebuttals of the specific charges that people make against Islam as it relates to the status of non-Muslims. I’m tired simple hearing such generalities as ‘everything you just said was wrong’ or ‘you have taken things out of context’ without any further details as to why I am wrong or what I have taken out of context.
“I think you are stuck to your negative beliefs and I think it would be a waste of time for me to change those beliefs.”
Far from it, I am quite open-minded. I don’t claim to be an expert by any means on Islam so I’m aware that I am not understand everything. I may be completely wrong on some things and I may be only half-right on other things. But what can I say, Nas? When you see some guy from Afghanistan who is put on trial for his life because he converted from one religion to another what am I supposed to believe about Islamic law? Also, when I can find no other completely satisfactory explanation for the terrorism that stems from the Islamic world other than some malevolent and virulent interpretation of the religion, what am I supposed to think? I can’t bury my head in the sand and say I was never aware of such things. If I’m mistaken, then tell me in specific terms how I am mistaken.
“Something you may have missed in Islam 101Ã¢?Â¦”
To be honest, I never took that course at a college or university. 😉
“If IÃ¢??m mistaken, then tell me in specific terms how I am mistaken.”
Your first mistake is that your perception of Islam is based on what you see on the news and what laws current countries who believe they are Islamic states are implementing.
“Please do go on. I would love to hear some rebuttals ”
the list is seriously too long. some of them are just made up. such as it being a law that christians cant fix churches or that we have to humiliate them as part of our religion or that Muslims can kill non-Muslims etc etc etc. No such laws exist to my knowledge.
there is a difference between God’s law and man’s interpretation or implementation of it. today is simply the worst example of the latter.
Yes you are very open minded…when you compare Muslims to Nazis you must be on the right track. 😉
“To be honest, I never took that course at a college or university”
maybe that was your second mistake. theres only so much places like littlegreenfootballs can teach you 😀
Perhaps, Nas, I could convice you to read the entire Wikipedia article for “Dhimmi” and tell me what you factual errors you find:
Please be specific.
Maybe you could enlighten me as to what you believe Islamic law says about rights and restrictions on non-Muslims and how they would be implemented in an ideal Islamic society. You apparently believe some concepts like the jizya are valid, while others, like the penalty for mudering on a non-Muslim being only a fine are invalid.
“Ã¢?Â¦when you compare Muslims to Nazis you must be on the right track.”
Come now, Nas, you needn’t be so hard on yourself or your fellow Muslims. You’re not that bad. 😉
samartin, I honestly would if I didn’t know you were sending me on a wild goose chase. In the end I know I will spend well over an hour formulating an answer only to have you throw it out or disregard it.
If you had approached this subject with better intentions perhaps I would’ve spared more time than I already have. Sadly it will be in vain.
If however you are indeed sincere I can recommend several books which might seem helpful. feel free to email me if this is the case.
p.s. wikipedia shouldn’t be a source on factual information, specifically with regards to Islam 😉
“I honestly would if I didnÃ¢??t know you were sending me on a wild goose chase. In the end I know I will spend well over an hour…”
If you think it would take you that long and you don’t want to spend the time, then don’t. Please don’t accuse me of sending you on a ‘wild goose chase’ though. My questions on this matter weren’t rhetorical.
“If you had approached this subject with better intentions perhaps I wouldÃ¢??ve spared more time than I already have. Sadly it will be in vain.”
Nonsense. You don’t know my intentions, you just assume you do. Please stop. My only intention is to figure out exactly what the truth of the matter is. You claim that every source I refer to is misleading, yet you refuse to provide me with any alternative explanation.
“If however you are indeed sincere I can recommend several books which might seem helpful. feel free to email me if this is the case.”
Since we are on the subject, why not list them here for everyone’s knowledge. Perhaps others would like to provide me and others who might be interested with sources that give a view of Islam more favorable than we see in other sources.
Please don’t refer me to anything written by Amr Khaled, either. 😉 I’ve been referred to his site and writings previously by Muslims. I don’t put much stock in ‘televangelists’ of any faith. 😉
“p.s. wikipedia shouldnÃ¢??t be a source on factual information, specifically with regards to Islam”
I understand that Wikipedia should not be solely relied upon as a source of information in most instances but the article in question is well cited and I have no real reason to believe, given the sources of these citations, that I would not find the same information in the printed sources listed. Furthermore, other articles relating to Islam, Arabs and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on Wikipedia are routinely disputed by Muslims. Reading the talk page of these articles is usually rather revealing.
In this article the only real objection to what is being said as indicated in the talk page is that much of the information is unfavorable to Muslims and therefore we see a few of the usual howls of ‘racism’ from the peanut gallery but not specific factual objections to anything the article actually says.
“Please donÃ¢??t accuse me of sending you on a Ã¢??wild goose chaseÃ¢?? though”
I don’t need to accuse you of anything, your intentions were very clear from the start and everyone and anyone can read through the comments and see just how clear that is. 😉
“Nonsense. You donÃ¢??t know my intentions, you just assume you do….yet you refuse to provide me with any alternative explanation.”
Nonesense, your intentions are more than clear. I’ve offered you some alternative explanation and you seem to mock it, hence why should I waste my time and reading and analyzing an article when you will simply reject it.
“Since we are on the subject, why not list them here for everyoneÃ¢??s knowledge. Perhaps others would like to provide me and others who might be interested with sources that give a view of Islam more favorable than we see in other sources.
Well since no one asked I don’t see the need to post them, the only person with a problem here would be you. Like I said, feel free to email me and I will send you the name of a few books that approach Islam intelligently and scientifically, which would probably be a step up for you from wikipedia. 😉
“Please donÃ¢??t refer me to anything written by Amr Khaled, either. 😉 IÃ¢??ve been referred to his site and writings previously by Muslims. I donÃ¢??t put much stock in Ã¢??televangelistsÃ¢?? of any faith. 😉 ”
Amr Khaled is a televangelist and not a source on Islam. He does not claim to be so and no one should make that claim for him. I’ve never used him as a source so I don’t know where you drew that conclusion 😉
“I donÃ¢??t need to accuse you of anything, your intentions were very clear from the start and everyone and anyone can read through the comments and see just how clear that is.”
Once again, you seem to think you know what I intend. You don’t.
“Nonesense, your intentions are more than clear. IÃ¢??ve offered you some alternative explanation and you seem to mock it,”
I don’t know what explanation you are referring to. You simply deny the truth of the allegations that I have raised and seem to obfuscate and attack me as being a bigot when pressed for any reason as to why they are not truthful.
“Like I said, feel free to email me and I will send you the name of a few books that approach Islam intelligently and scientifically, which would probably be a step up for you from wikipedia.”
I’ll probably take you up on that offer. Thank you, Nas. 🙂
“Amr Khaled is a televangelist and not a source on Islam. He does not claim to be so and no one should make that claim for him. IÃ¢??ve never used him as a source so I donÃ¢??t know where you drew that conclusion”
I was only teasing. 😉 Somehow, you don’t seem like the type that would be into Amr Khaled, thank goodness!